Joe McHugh (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I commend Deputies Kenny and Perry on raising this matter. It is indicative of an effective Opposition that has been working well in the past two years and a team of people who are getting ready to enter Government. It is a good omen for a team that will be capable and professional, when in Government.

As regards the remuneration of moneys owed to people who were otherwise charged illegally, it is important that the public has confidence in what is being done. If there is to be a remuneration in excess of €1 billion, it is important that the litigators do not take a surplus of what is available. That is to be welcomed.

Senator Minihan mentioned that the Tánaiste has done a good job since this issue was highlighted. She had no choice. It is as simple as that. She had to do a good job. An illegal technicality was identified and she had no choice. It is important that the public has confidence in the disbursement of moneys to the people from whom it was taken, illegitimately. A wider debate should be mandatory as regards care of the elderly and it is incumbent on us as legislators to begin that debate. Perhaps this is a watershed as regards opening a debate on the elderly. It is certain, however, that there is a serious equality issue as regards care of the elderly.

The symbolism of an elderly person handing over his or her pension book to either a private or public nursing home is disturbing. Such a practice is inequitable and wrong. I am in total agreement that one has to pay for services, but to require the handing over of a pension book to a public or private body is to treat people discriminately and this must be addressed. To give an example, there would be uproar if we were to insist that parents hand over their children's allowance for pre-school care or require people to surrender their unemployment assistance to go on courses. People would not accept that. There would be a revolution if we started to demand unemployment assistance from the unemployed or the children's allowance from parents. Equally, it is wrong to ask people who have worked relentlessly and tirelessly in this State over the years, the elderly, to hand over their pension books and we have a serious inequality issue as a result.

If elderly people are functionally dependent or have cognitive needs that need taking care of, they cannot be treated differently from any other citizen. They still have to be treated on an equal basis. As a practical example, I will ask the Minister of State, through the Chair, how he would feel on his retirement, if he had to hand over his Oireachtas pension to some authorities, and it was taken away from him week by week and he never saw a penny of it.