Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

I may get into trouble by saying this but at present there is a major controversy as to whether it is possible, right or appropriate for liberal democracies to engage in regime change to bring about liberal democracy, as we see it, in places where we say it does not exist. I do not want to get involved in that debate here. While Senator Tuffy advances the term "democratic", I must deal with what it would actually mean. If, for example, I am asked whether this applies to North Korea, Cuba, Morocco, Bahrain, Kuwait or Saudi Arabia, I must be able to answer yes or no. I cannot simply state that if it does not apply, what would otherwise be a terrorist offence internationally can be planned in Ireland in respect of all those countries.

The terrorist offences under discussion are set on page 78 of the Bill from paragraphs (a) to (i) and include attacks on a person's life which may cause death, attacks on a person's physical integrity, kidnapping and hostage taking and a series of other offences. If I were to accept the proposition that because a country has neither elections nor a parliament no offence is committed if somebody plans a terrorist atrocity on Irish soil to be perpetrated in that country, the effect would be far-reaching.

While we may all have our pet list of kingdoms or people's democracies, to take the discussion beyond left or right I will use the example of the Vatican. Is it a democracy? I could not accept that it is right to let off a bomb in the Vatican or to plan in Ireland to do so simply because it does not have elections. Of course the Vatican does have elections but they are for life.