Mary O'Rourke (Fianna Fail)

I thought the public service gave paid parental leave. I would be keen to know which employers give it. I would like to know why we are so out of step with all those other countries — it is quite amazing. I think France has excellent paid parental leave which can be taken by mothers or fathers until the child is two years of age. It is only right that is the case. A grudging attitude is still with us that it is the mother's job to mind the child and she should stay at home. I can only call that kind of talk "gab talk". It is so wrong. I understand teachers get paid parental leave but I thought all public servants got it — I am quite amazed they do not.

There are worries for the employer when a woman opts to take parental leave. I like the flexibility in the Bill, which is interesting, worthwhile and is a step in the right direction. I note the Minister of State said the social partners could not agree on the issue of paid parental leave. Of course they could not reach agreement because I would say the employers did not want to give it and the employees wanted it. The trade unions would want paid parental leave while IBEC or those representing employers would not.

I sometimes find it defeatist the way Ireland must be dragged to the post to provide for measures such as this. Luxembourg gives paid parental leave and has the lowest unemployment rate in Europe next to Ireland, so it must be doing quite well. I cannot help but remember that when I started in public life, there was a vote at a county council meeting on whether women should stay at home and should not look for work in the workforce. The economy of a country is worse off without the inclusion of both women and men in the workforce.

I wish to move on to an issue not covered by this Bill on which my colleague, Senator White, speaks and on which it is worth commenting. I agree with the Minister of State that there has been a great leap in the provision of crèche places through an equal opportunities measure which has been very helpful. While the provision of places is important, the cost of those places is the issue. It is not facile to say that, in most instances, couples pay more for their crèche place than they pay on their mortgage. Is the world topsy-turvy or what has gone wrong? People try to make other arrangements; they invoke the help of in-laws or a child-minder in a house. I think a person can look after four or perhaps five children without being registered as a crèche.

I try to walk to the House most mornings and I see mothers and fathers looking harassed and bothered with their off-spring looking similarly so. I pass a crèche coming down a street and see children bouncing in at 8 a.m. or 8.15 a.m. with mothers with their make-up ready for their next task on their way to their job. I also see fathers shooing in two or three children. Of course, it is not the ideal arrangement. How could it be? It would be if the child had the same carer, and I take that point which is solidly made. We will be dragged screaming to giving paid parental leave and to extending the time span so that parents may bond with their child. Bonding is not just fuzzy women's talk. The bonding between a child and its mother and father is very important and fathers should share in that bonding process. Long ago the father said it was the mother's job to mind the child while he went about his very important business, sporting and other engagements in pubs and elsewhere. The mother had to struggle in all sorts of ways. That day has gone because I see young fathers, including my two sons, share equally in the care of the young baby. That is to the good. It is not only the mother who should get up in the middle of the night when the child cries but the father should also get up and tend to the child. I can see the fellows smirking.