Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

We are discussing the amendment rather than the section generally. However, I suppose we can talk about both at the same time. The amendment runs contrary to the terms of section 17, which we have already discussed, and for the reasons I expressed in regard to that I will not change my view at this point.

On this issue, I would ask Senators, some of whom have been nominated by a federation which includes representative organisations, to look carefully at the report of the Morris tribunal, which investigated Garda activities in Donegal. The point made by Senator Jim Walsh was set out in that report in the coldest terms. Members of the Garda Síochána are not simply employees. The Garda is not simply a service industry where the public are customers, it is something different, namely, a disciplined force that is a central element of the executive power of our State. I am not naive in regard to what can and cannot be achieved, but it could not be the case that somebody could organise, in effect, a mutiny in the Garda Síochána and that the State would stand helpless in the face of such behaviour.

Senator Cummins comes from a party, of which I was once a member, which has a strong tradition in law and order and standing behind the State. Sometimes standing behind the Garda Síochána, one has to stand behind the force as the force, rather than the force as represented by the representative bodies of the force.

The Garda Síochána is a central pillar of the State and must operate as a disciplined force, as Mr. Justice Morris pointed out. It cannot be the case, for instance, that the proper functioning of the force is reduced to solely an industrial relations process. There are occasions when superior officers are entitled to an immediate explanation and when it is not a matter of negotiation as to whether they would be informed of facts or given explanations to which they are entitled. A disciplined force cannot function in that way. I do not wish to sound draconian or hardline.

A police force is distinguishable from fire or ambulance services which are equally vital parts of our State but while we can say in those cases unionisation is permissible, we simply cannot cross that line in regard to the Garda Síochána.

I am considering tabling an amendment to section 52(2)(b) to increase the penalty for causing disaffection to five years because, as things stand, to the best of my knowledge — and Senators may correct me on this — there would not be a power of arrest if we leave the indictable penalty at two years. Somebody could hand out leaflets urging people to mutiny and it would not be possible to arrest them as the law currently stands. I think that would be wrong. I hope that is not taken as being hardline, it is just in order to make the legislation effective.

I accept what Senator Leyden said, that one would need to reach a high threshold before this section would come into operation, but if we did reach that high threshold and I was confronted with people handing out leaflets outside Garda stations urging a mutiny effectively against the authority of the Garda Commissioner, I would have to be in a position to arrest them. I could not just say, "Please desist or we will send you a solicitor's letter."