Derek McDowell (Labour)

I am only warming up. I had a great deal more to say. There are choices with regard to public services. They can be paid for largely out of direct taxes, or out of user charges, by making people pay for the services when they use them. They can be provided by the private sector which can afford it, and this is a variation of the previous option, or they cannot be provided at all.

I have a problem with the Fine Gael motion. It is not realistic to say direct and indirect taxes are too high and should come down, or that we do not like stealth taxes, which is code for user charges, but we still need reform. That argument is inadequate and does not stack up. I have no problem with certain user chargers, for example, tolls on motorways. However, I have a serious problem with charges at points of use in the health service, including GP charges, and with charges in education. I would have a problem if we tried to privatise security or the way we deal with crime. We should look at it on an issue-by-issue basis.

The State should provide certain services free to all the population at the best level we can afford. I disagree with those who say we should provide medical cards to those who cannot afford access otherwise. We should provide the best possible service to everybody, paid for through the taxation system. However, I have no difficulty tolling the motorway through the Minister's constituency. That is discretionary use by an individual who will be asked to pay for the service at the time.