Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister of State and his officials to the House. It is good to have a discussion on alcohol and it is time to have a mature debate on it. There was much hysteria about banning alcohol and people being in bed by 10 p.m. This may sound great as a possible solution but it will not work. I am very encouraged by groups such as the Mature Enjoyment of Alcohol in Society because that is the core objective. The difficulty is that we cannot stop drinking. People in other European countries drink just as we do, but they stop. They can have one or two drinks and then go home. Unfortunately, we cannot do likewise. We have all been in situations where we have had one or two drinks and try to leave a group who react as if the night will collapse. When we tell them we are not having any more to drink, they look at us with complete incredulity. There is something wrong in a society where that happens. One should be able to say one does not want any more to drink and leave it at that.

This is a social issue. Much of this derives from parental example and guidance. If parents and other older relatives show good example, it follows that the children will drink modestly too. I was bemused to see on the day after the All-Ireland hurling final when Cork beat Kilkenny that TV3 was in a hotel in Dublin with the victorious team. They were in the bar and one of the leading players was drinking pints of lager. The clear inference was that alcohol was in some way linked to the victory. It is anything but and the reality is that all those players probably were not drinking alcohol for weeks or months before the game.

We all accept that alcohol is detrimental to our health, which the Minister of State's speech proved. It is unfortunate that the media did not interview that player either outside the pub or without a pint in his hand. That image sent out all the wrong signals. How can we be surprised here by young people drinking if they are bombarded with those images from an early age? There is an onus on advertisers and the media in that context to interview sportspeople away from a setting associated with alcohol. That image brought this home very clearly to me.

Many friends of mine have made the valid point that minerals cost almost as much as alcohol. Surely the Government has a clear role in this regard. It could reduce VAT on minerals or non-alcoholic beverages to ensure that people have at least the option and some incentive to save money, have a clear head in the morning and do not risk offending a friend. Instead, non-alcoholic drinks are as expensive as alcohol and there is no real incentive to choose those drinks. That is a practical area in which the Government can play a role and control prices.

When I started going to discos about ten years ago in Carlow, we were served dinner in the local nightclub. One paid an entry fee, received a ticket, had a few drinks and then went in to get a chicken breast and chips, or whatever was provided. At least it sobered one up a little. The difference now is that people go in and drink non-stop for the whole night. Unfortunately, they are also taking drugs with the drink, which is a lethal combination. I thought there was an onus on licensed premises which open late at night to provide some form of food. I have sought clarification on this and perhaps the Minister might know. It certainly was the case in the past, but it seems to have been abandoned recently. It might play some part in sobering people up as they are drinking on empty stomachs. On New Year's Eve there will be people going into places at 8 p.m. and remaining there until 3 a.m. In a seven-hour period, they will have no food. Surely that is wrong and they should get some food to help them balance things up.

I am very concerned about the idea of a national ID card and why the Government is so lax in that regard. It makes common sense that everyone should have a national ID card. A friend of mine told me recently that her husband collapsed in Dublin after just two pints. It happened at night and most people would have assumed he had been drinking to excess, but he had not been doing so; he just felt unwell. In that case, it would make sense to have a national ID card so that someone could find out who he is because there would be basic information on his ID card, such as his blood group. At least that information could be given to the emergency services.

God forbid that any of us might be beaten up and left in a heap on the street. It could happen easily if one met the wrong people at the wrong time. Surely it would make sense in that case to have a national ID card. I have not even mentioned the fact that it would eliminate the problem of under age people buying alcohol. They can alter some of the existing ID cards. They would not be able to do that to a national ID card.

I feel sorry for publicans and those who own off-licences who are convicted of selling alcohol to under age people. I saw a case in my own county where a girl went into an off-licence with an ID that had been clearly forged, yet which looked perfect to the person behind the counter. She produced the ID card which declared that she was over 18, so the person behind the counter had no choice but to serve alcohol to her. It then emerged that she was not over 18 and the off-licence was closed for a few days and its owner fined heavily. The irony of it was that the girl in question got away scot free, having deliberately tampered with an ID card. Surely that is wrong as it does not punish the person and make her responsible for her actions.

The Minister of State also referred to women drinkers. He stated that in Cork, drunkenness among girls was up 60% and that violence among this group was an additional phenomenon. That is unfortunately the case on every street in Ireland, yet it was certainly not the case in the past, which is very worrying. I am not too sure what the solution involves. However, some form of a breathalyser test should be introduced. If someone goes out with €150 in his or her pocket on a Saturday night, plans to drink that amount of money, gets exceptionally drunk and injures himself or herself, then that person should have some responsibility towards the cost of going to an accident and emergency unit. The whole purpose of such a unit is for genuine cases, such as someone at home who suffers a heart attack. It is terrible to see fully able people deliberately making themselves disabled. There should be some sanction in that regard. There should be an onus on all of us to know that if we hurt ourselves through being exceptionally drunk, then we have some responsibility. It is not good enough and they should not be clogging up accident and emergency units, depriving genuine patients of the care they deserve.

There are many recommendations in the interim report such as increasing taxes. However, I wonder whether that would drive people to drink more at home, which might not be good. At least a pub is a controlled environment. There is always a grave danger that people drinking at home might drink even more than they would in a pub. The establishment of a national ID card makes sense.

There are also recommendations to restrict greater availability on any new licence that meets specific criteria and to provide for health boards to intervene in licensing systems. While that might make sense, I also have to question it. If one goes abroad to any EU country or even further afield, one will note that alcohol is freely available, even in ordinary shops, yet the local people are not drinking to excess. Prohibition, therefore, may not be the correct approach. A liberal market might actually have the opposite effect to what we envisage.

Drink driving is a major issue that has been tackled very successfully in the past few years. There is a recommendation to introduce random breath testing, which is a welcome proposal. There is also a suggestion to lower the blood alcohol content to 0.5 mg per litre and lowering it to zero for provisional drivers. I agree with the second recommendation, but I have reservations about the first one. Lowering the blood alcohol level is fine in a city area because people have the choice of taxis, buses, the Luas, the DART, the Nitelink and so on. In a rural setting where people who work late and want to go to the local pub for one, two or three pints and can handle their drink, it is not such a good idea to close them down completely. In some respects, it would make people drink more.

The reality is that if people know that they can drive, they will go out for one or two drinks and drive the car home while under the current limit. However, if we lower the limit to an unrealistic level, such people will get a lift to the pub instead of driving and instead of staying out for a short while, they might stay out for a full night. They know they are not driving and will probably drink much more. It is an issue that should be examined and was raised in the last Dáil by former Deputy Austin Deasy. In the rural setting, draconian measures should not be brought in that would result in people not being able to go out for one or two drinks. We should be realistic and recognise that people do not all have the same transport facilities.

The section of the report on advertising and reducing exposure of alcohol marketing to children also makes sense, as does the encouragement of sports organisations to promote alcohol-free environments for children. It is also regrettable that when the under eight and under ten teams win something, invariably they all end up in the pub. Regrettably, all their parents are drinking and it is turned into a major drinking event, which gives a bad example to the younger children. At communion and confirmation time next year, parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts will invariably end up in hotels and pubs drinking, in some cases to excess.

The provision of information on education and services is a good point raised in the report. We clearly have to link alcohol consumption and poor health and get that message across. We must also provide proper sports facilities. This Government does not have a great record in that area. I am aware of one school in Donabate, County Dublin, that was told to divide its PE hall into two classrooms, instead of being granted a new classroom. It means the children in that school will not even have a PE hall, even though PE is part of the national curriculum in primary school. That sends out a very bad message.

The collection, collation and proper interpretation of research and data on road fatalities and suicides is very important although I appreciate it is very hard to measure in some cases. I am also interested in the results of prosecutions for the sale of alcohol to minors. I reiterate that if a minor deliberately enters a pub or off-licence with false identification, there should be some onus on him or her to bear some responsibility for that. If I owned a pub or off-licence, I would feel very aggrieved if I discovered that an ID card which was presented to me was not valid, even though it looked as if it was. The sooner national ID cards are introduced, therefore, the better for everyone concerned.

The World Health Organisation has issued a declaration about young people and alcohol. I agree with most of the targets it hopes to meet by 2006, many of which are mentioned in the report under discussion by the House. How can the targets be achieved? That is the main question. Ultimately, we have to encourage the mature enjoyment of alcohol and introduce basic individual responsibility on the part of parents and juveniles. We would do quite well to follow the example of our European colleagues.