Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

We are discussing increasing Garda numbers and perhaps we need to increase numbers on the Opposition side for certain purposes. I once did a calculation that if we were to have the same number of police per capita as in Northern Ireland, we would have a Garda force of approximately 21,000. In 1997, the Garda force was half that number. The history is very clear. One of the key commitments by Fianna Fáil in the 1997 general election was to increase the numbers of gardaí to 12,000. That was almost achieved by June 2002 so it augurs well for fulfilment of the Minister's plan. This is a commitment of both parties in Government. The 2002 Fianna Fáil manifesto, which followed the commitment to increase the numbers to 12,000 in the 1997 manifesto, stated that, if elected to serve in Government, Fianna Fáil would expand the Garda Síochána by a further 2,000.

The joint programme for Government provides that it will complete the current expansion of the Garda Síochána and increase recruitment so numbers will increase by a further 2,000. In a sense, the baton which was with the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, in the last Government has been taken on by the Minister, Deputy McDowell. I know from speaking to him that he is committed to it and, objectively, it is in the interests of the country.

There was a debate in the mid-1990s as to whether the law and order problem was vastly exaggerated. The then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform did not get adequate political support from her colleagues in Government. One of the reasons the Government is in office is that, from the Taoiseach down, the issues of law and order were taken seriously and the feeling was it was not merely enough to deal with the social causes of crime, though those are important. Perhaps I can make one or two specific points about the uses to which the Garda might be put. It is a paradox that it is not by and large those who are reasonably well off in society who suffer most from a lack of law and order, but those in the estates, those towards the bottom of the social scale. It is the case that the Garda, given its current numbers, is sometimes reticent about going in and out of such areas.

A couple of initiatives the Government is taking in the Minister's Garda Síochána Bill, which is to be welcomed, include a system of liaison between local authorities, communities and the Garda. This already exists with the new police service in Northern Ireland. Such a system would be very valuable in bringing an holistic approach to bear because law and order issues cannot all be dealt with by a method within the jurisdiction of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform as they also relate to issues such as street lighting, lay out, facilities and so on. The RAPID programme which concerns many deprived areas also focuses on the holistic approach.

The actions of the Garda in Dunsink was raised on the Order of Business this morning. Since then I have read more about it in the newspapers. There is a general principle that all members and sections of the community should be subject to the rule of law and that nobody, by virtue of their particular social status, is exempt. Many communities suffer from the lack of the rule of law and the feeling that many types of people engaging in disorder are virtually untouchable so far as the Garda is concerned. Safety on the streets is important. It is appalling to read of young people being killed on the streets, out of the blue, presumably by other young people who are high on something or other. I agree with the point that a city which is well and properly policed has a significant deterrent effect on attacks.

The Garda College in Templemore is referred to in the amendment which has lapsed. It is a magnificent facility which is admired and respected worldwide. I fully support its further development. It now has a significant international dimension.