Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)

That is important because he is coming from a totally different perspective.

I want to make one point and I may be way off the mark in saying this but when I speak to non-commissioned officers in my constituency, they tell of the upstairs-downstairs attitude that exists. That is part of the problem. People with authority have to use it in a very firm way to ensure discipline, and all the things to which Senator Minihan rightly referred, but sometimes that goes over the mark. We need someone who will have the necessary breadth of experience to tackle these issues but who can also take a case of his own volition. This would be a considerable strength to the office holder who will know the distinction between what is significant and insignificant. The net point is to counter the upstairs-downstairs attitude that, unfortunately, exists. It would give a voice to many people in the Defence Forces who feel that sometimes their voice is ignored when complaints are made.

Is the ombudsman a voice for the small men and women of the Army? Yes, but the office is there for a good reason. I would not tie anyone's hands as set out in the existing legislation. We need to be much more flexible. If the Minister tells me there is a better way of putting forward amendment No. 4 than we have done, then I am all ears and will meet him half way. However, I believe we are considering a crucial point in respect of the Bill.