John Minihan (Progressive Democrats)

I join previous speakers in welcoming the Minister and congratulate him on his appointment. I wish him well in the challenges facing him in the changing environment of the Defence Forces and pay tribute to his predecessor, Deputy Michael Smith, who presided over major changes therein. While we may not always have seen eye to eye and locked horns on numerous occasions, I acknowledge the tremendous work he did during his term as Minister for Defence.

I approach the debate from a unique position, having been a member of the Defence Forces for 21 years. The legislation could not have been contemplated when I enlisted in 1975. While considering it, I wondered whether I was bullied or whether I engaged in bullying. That is the magic question. It is terribly difficult to apply civilian standards and rules to a military force and there is a fine line. All Members can speak with the mind of a civilian about the role of an ombudsman in addressing wrongs and bullying, in particular as it is straightforward and easy to do so. We are all aware of the plethora of welcome, necessary Bills that have been introduced to address bullying in the workplace, which I fully support. However, one cannot apply such legislation to the armed forces. The legislation can be adapted, modified and made to fit because it is needed but it should be examined in detail.

While I welcome the legislation, I wish to highlight its uniqueness. No chief executive or manager has command or control over a lethal force. The legislation applies to military institutions, procedures and operations. I accept military operations have been defined under the legislation but if I am engaged in a military training exercise and I must deal with a scenario which ultimately could lead to the saving of lives, and I shout at and harass a soldier or his colleagues, am I bullying? We must be careful about such issues.

I refer to a comment made by Senator O'Meara. The level of bullying and harassment in the Defence Forces is not disproportionate to that which takes place in civilian organisations. We should not think a bullying culture within the Defence Forces has gone unnoticed and unchecked for many years, thereby necessitating this legislation, because that would be unfair.

A system for redressing wrongs has been in operation under the Defence Act and it has served the military well. I have been involved in administering, processing and adjudicating at various levels within that system and, on occasions, we found in favour of the complainant. The rank structure within a military organisation is unique and the responsibilities and control mechanisms provided to ensure a military force operates efficiently and effectively are also unique. At times the manner in which directions and orders are dispensed is not similar to that used in a civilian organisation and that must be acknowledged. The legislation, as drafted, and the Committee Stage debate in the Lower House reflect that point. However, I ask Members to consider the uniqueness of the legislation and ensure it is adapted.

I refer to the history of the Defence Forces since the foundation of the State. When they were founded, there were questions regarding whether they would be overly politicised. We owe a major debt of gratitude to the founders of the Defence Forces and those who served in their formative years that they remained outside the political system when it would have been easy for them not to do so given the climate of the time.

Developments within the Defence Forces since the late 1980s such as the introduction of representation should also be considered. Representation was unheard of in the mid-1970s. I was serving at the time and people said it would not work but it has worked effectively. It took time and we had difficulties and problems in defining the demarcation lines but we got it right. We did not know what to do when females were permitted to join the Defence Forces. Were we to open the door for them or vice versa? I did not know what to do and it was totally confusing. According to the culture of the Defence Forces at the time, there was no way we could adapt to the presence of female personnel but we did. Women members have been effective and have enhanced the Defence Forces.

The command structure of the Defence Forces is unique and that must be borne in mind in applying the legislation. I am wary that, in bringing it forward, there could be an over-civilianisation of the Defence Forces, which would prevent officers from carrying out their duties in a proper and effective manner. Ultimately, a commander in the Defence Forces has responsibility for the safety of his troops and he must direct operations so that their safety is ensured at all times.

Under the legislation operations involving personnel serving overseas who are under the command of the members of other defence forces will be exempt. Will the Minister clarify whether this is the case? On occasion, when I served overseas, I was the only Irish soldier present and my boss could have been a Finn, a Norwegian or a Swede. If I were seeking redress now, would I use the UN system or the system provided under the legislation? We should have a full and clear understanding of this.

I also pay tribute to the late John Lucey. He was a champion of this legislation for which he fought and campaigned. He died tragically but he would have been a happy man to see us debating the legislation.

We are not only addressing the administration of the Defence Forces through legislation such as this. There is also a significant need to maintain the movement to reorganise them not only through modernising their procedures but also by investing in equipment and implementing the White Paper, which reduced them to the required strength and will address the rank structure within the forces. I ask the Minister to be conscious of barrack closures. I do not wish to make a political point but the reduction of ranks and structures will require political decisions, which will also involve barrack closures. Decisions on both issues must be taken in tandem, otherwise we will end up with a housekeeping army minding a number of deserted barracks. That issue must be examined. Given the percentage increase in the defence Vote in recent years, there has been a significant saving through the disposal of lands. It was agreed that money from that source would be reinvested in the Defence Forces to improve them, which was a welcome development. However, such money should not form a substitute for increases in the defence Vote in line with increases in other Departments. Were that to happen, there would be no great gain. I ask the Minister to consider these matters.

I welcome the Bill and I am delighted as a former Army officer to speak on a matter pertaining to the Defence Forces. I record my gratitude for the 21 years I served in the Defence Forces here and overseas. We should never underestimate the calibre of person serving in today's Defence Forces. They are the true ambassadors for this country, operating in very hostile environments and doing us proud. A colleague of mine with absolutely no experience of the Defence Forces, the then Lord Mayor of Cork who visited our troops in the Lebanon a couple of years ago, told me on his return that he had encountered "the best kept secret from the Irish people". It should not be a secret, rather we should fly that banner proudly.

We are all indebted to our Defence Forces and not only for their service to the State from within. While some question the value for money of the Defence Forces, I always claim they are the greatest insurance policy we have. If on one day over their lifetime the Defence Forces uphold the democracy of the State, they will have served it well. On top of this consideration is the service they have contributed on the world stage in so proud a manner. I congratulate all members of the Defence Forces on such service.

The person who is appointed ombudsman will have a major responsibility to cross the line I have spelt out from civilianisation to military command. The person will have to be uniquely qualified and the process will take time. I am glad we are maintaining the existing structures of redress within the military system. If the Defence Forces fulfil their role properly and embrace this legislation as I expect they will, the ombudsman will have a quiet job in terms of the number of cases with which he or she will have to deal.