Labhrás Ó Murchú (Fianna Fail)

I dtosach, is mian liom fáiltiú roimh an tuarascáil seo. Is mian liom freisin na daoine a chuaigh i mbun na hoibre a mholadh. Tá sár jab déanta acu. Tá sé soiléir freisin go raibh modus operandi ann a bhí an-oscailte, an-fhairsing agus an-éifeachtach. Is mór an cabhair é dúinn agus táimid go mór faoi chomaoin, ní amháin ag na daoine a bhí ar an gcoiste ach ag na daoine a chur aighneachtaí isteach freisin. Táimid an-bhuíoch ar fad de gach duine.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, to the House. I congratulate him on his re-appointment and wish him well in the future. He has done a magnificent job in the past in a very challenging area. The concern and compassion he has shown to vulnerable people is something I like to see in public life. I wish him well in the future.

I compliment those who put so much time and effort into making this transparent report available to the Seanad. It is obvious that many people engaged in the process. I accept that we have had discussions, debates and reports on Seanad reform in the past, but we have to start from the premise that it will be successful and effective on this occasion. I am sure most Senators have had a difficult time making contributions on this subject, for the simple reason that we probably have a vested interest in Seanad reform. It is possible that the implementation of the report, or part of its implementation, will impact on our electoral prospects in the future. It could also impact on our role and the perception of the Seanad and the part it plays in parliamentary democracy. Having said that, all Senators are clear in their desire to make a sincere contribution to this debate.

A number of things have come across to me in a forceful manner during my time in the Seanad. There is quite a gap between perception and reality in the public view of the Seanad, but it is improving and it is possible that the reality is coming centre stage. I give credit to RTE, particularly "Oireachtas Report", for that. When debates are broadcast to the public, people can see the standard of debate in the House. It is evident that quite an amount of research is done by Senators, many of whom take independent views, irrespective of political affiliation. I do not mean to be derogatory when I say that personalities are not to the fore in our debates to the same extent as they are in the Dáil. Senators tend to focus on the business in hand. We receive a fair degree of credit from the media and the public in that regard.

It is interesting to note that few people suggested in their submissions that the Seanad should disappear from the parliamentary democratic process. It is good that people feel that the Seanad should be retained. It is also right that we should adopt an incisive approach to deciding what should and should not be changed. It is easy to make changes for the sake of change, but one often discovers afterwards that the devil one knew was better than the devil one did not know. I would like to put my remarks in context for that reason.

I genuinely believe that the Seanad has served us well, although I accept that Senators have a vested interest in saying so. It is not a place where those who want to go to the Dáil mark time, or a reward for others. There is great cut and thrust in the House from time to time. Many Senators are passionate and determined about the subjects discussed in the House. It would be wrong to categorise the House as a rest home.

Many Bills — over 30 in one session — have been initiated in the House. They have been exceptionally well debated, as have the Bills which have come to the House from the Dáil. Many amendments have originated in the House. Many Bills have been set aside or delayed as a result of something that has come forward in the Seanad. That has to be an important contribution.

I do not accept that the election of the Seanad has been the source of democratic weakness, an argument which is sometimes made by those who engage in the false characterisation of local authority members. I support Senator O'Toole's assertion that other assemblies use a particular stepping stone of election, which is exactly what happens in the case of the Seanad. Local authority members, who are elected following a severe process, face difficulties because they are at the coalface. When they come through that challenge, they have been filtered through an examinations system which is not found in any other electoral process. When local authority members vote in Seanad elections — I am not talking about the university elections — they participate in another system to elect us. They comprise our constituency and we are elected by the people through them. I would not like that to be tampered with in any major way.

Those who have proposed a list system of election have not told us how such lists are put in place and have not outlined how such lists can be said to be transparent. They have not clarified the degree to which one might need to be in favour to get on a list. I would be worried about such a system. We will not be made aware of its lack of transparency until it starts to operate. I do not think we should tamper with the other system. I agree that all third level institutions should be brought into the franchise for graduates — that is the right thing to do.

I wish to consider the role the Seanad can play in the future. I would like to suggest a new role which would not require a change to the Constitution, but to Standing Orders. I have to be careful because the Leas-Chathaoirleach is familiar with the mechanisms which are used. On the Order of Business each morning, for example, one has to try to avoid the malign eye, if that is the case, of the Cathaoirleach. One has to get a benign eye if one wishes to sneak something in under the Order of Business. One has to be tight in one's contributions. There is a degree of panic, generally speaking, among those who fear that the Cathaoirleach will interrupt them. I propose that a couple of hours be set aside every day for dealing with day-to-day and urgent matters. We have dealt with issues such as Iraq, crises in the Third World and racist attacks on unfortunate immigrants when such issues needed to be dealt with urgently. The Seanad would be thanked if it had such a role.

We know that sensitivity applies in many other areas. The Seanad could play a particularly effective and sensitive role in dealing with the Northern situation, for example. It is far better that we should talk to each other than at each other. There is a significant difference between the panic or sensational headlines in the media and the personal dialogue many Senators have with people of different traditions in the North from time to time. I had the pleasure of serving as chairman of a particular body of which the late Sir Robert Kidd was vice-chairman. Sir Robert was the chairman of the Northern Ireland civil service when the secretary was the famous Paddy "Bogside" Doherty. It was a rare mixture and yet we found that we could work together, respected each other and became great friends.

Let us bring that to another stage, that of the legislative area. I do not mean tokenism but there should be people here, perhaps through the nominations of the Taoiseach. I do not think that it can be done in an electoral manner in the immediate future, since it will be difficult to achieve representation in a sensitive situation. However, I know that the different players would be particularly pleased to participate in a more subtle manner in providing people for this House. Consider the types of debates we have had. On the Order of Business this morning, we requested a debate on Northern Ireland because we felt that there had been a long vacuum and we were awaiting developments. Incidentally, it is great news that Dr. Ian Paisley and the DUP representatives are coming to Dublin. That is major progress, and we ignore how much has been made in the last 20 or 25 years. We could give substance to that if we had people representing both traditions here with us.

The other area I would like brought centre stage is that of Europe. The vast majority of people do not relate to it. I do not mean "Europe" as a continent, but the European institutions. Probably people relate far more to America or Britain. One reason is that we do not seem to have a continuous flow of information or interaction between us. I see no reason in the world that MEPs should not regularly attend not just to address us, as they have done, but to interact with us in debate. I know that we get all the documents passed on to us. However, as Senator MacSharry said this morning, how is one to read through those and how relevant are they?

I see that I am getting a little nod. I may be being unfair to Senator Feeney, since I promised that I would share time with her. However, my first point is that there are many suggestions in that report on which we should act. Second, we should not do something because it is politically correct or might in some way satisfy the media. We should act as legislators of real conviction who want to get the best out of the current system. As I had already complimented the previous Minister of State, I would like to avail of the opportunity to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, and congratulate her most sincerely, wish her well for the future and thank her for all the good work she has done hitherto.