Dick Roche (Wicklow, Fianna Fail)

In fact, bigger crowds make for even more spoiled broth. Senator Brian Hayes is correct. The fault with tribunals and the fact that tribunals have appeared, in the opinion of many, to go off the rails, is due to the imprecision and catch-all nature of terms of reference. The Senator made a cogent argument in favour of the case I was making because he then referred to the tick-tacking that goes on in the background. I agree there has been a degree of tick-tacking in the past. We have produced the lowest common denominator as regards terms of reference rather than terms of reference which are effective and efficient. I accept that point and I acknowledge the Senator is correct. He is also correct in saying that Oireachtas committees are not good places in which to carry out political investigations although I would argue that Oireachtas committees should be used far more frequently. I was one of the advocates of the PAC carrying out the DIRT inquiry. That inquiry demonstrated what Members of both Houses can achieve if we have the self-confidence to do it.

Senator Tuffy referred to the work of the boundary commission on Dáil constituencies. The Senator is arguing against her own argument because she argues that the terms of reference which had been obnoxious to Members on all sides of the House from time to time have been produced. It was not a gerrymander effort but an effort by successive Governments, and not just from one side, to produce terms of reference which are fair and equitable. Some of the decisions made by the commission stand logic on its head but it is one person's view against another person's view.

Senator Brian Hayes may have strayed a little in discussing membership of commissions, which is dealt with in section 7(2). The provision that the Government will appoint the commission in the event that the Minister does not make appointments or it is not appropriate for him to do so creates a certain distance between the Minister and the investigation. The provision will apply if the Minister is the subject of an allegation.

I return to the point made by the Minister in the Dáil when he addressed this fundamental issue at length. He stated he was trying to create a different animal, not a tribunal light or a tribunal with slight modifications but a different form of investigation. We will have different approaches, namely, the form of investigation provided for in the Bill and investigation by parliamentary committee. The Houses of the Oireachtas have been too willing to use the tribunal system or create tribunals with ill-defined terms of reference and then complain when they do what we have prescribed.

Senators Tuffy and Brian Hayes made cogent arguments in favour of the steps the Minister is taking. Notwithstanding that I am always charmed by Members of this House, I regret I cannot accept the amendments.