Brian Hayes (Fine Gael)

The Minister of State is right that this matter was discussed at length on Committee Stage in the other House. The views we have outlined are genuinely thought out and it is appropriate that the establishment of these new commissions should be within the remit of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

We are establishing a new set of inquiries which hopefully will have more political effect in resolving many of the difficulties that have been left unresolved by the tribunals.

The Oireachtas established the terms of reference for the existing tribunals. If any fault is to be laid, Members of both Houses must take their fair share of the responsibility. The terms of reference have been so broad and flexible as to allow the tribunals to investigate every matter that comes to their attention. The fourth interim report of Judge Mahon and his colleagues in the planning tribunal is clearly a cry for help in respect of the outstanding matters yet to be investigated.

If the Oireachtas pools its responsibility for the establishment of these commissions and particularly for the terms of reference, there will be a much greater sense of ownership of that process when it gets under way. The private nature of the investigations can be discussed later.

The natural tick-tacking that goes on between Government and Opposition before a terms of reference is proposed in respect of any of the existing tribunals will be lost once these new commissions fall within the responsibility of a Minister. The following situation may arise where the all-party approach is not beneficial. Where a political charge is made against a Minister, Minister of State or politician, it is only right and proper that the people who investigate that charge are from outside these Houses. Once a charge is made, all kinds of party political implications must be considered.

What happens if a Minister, who is responsible for a Department and who must establish these commissions, is the subject of a charge or allegation in respect of any third party from outside the Houses of the Oireachtas who could make such a charge? In that circumstance, the Minister and the Government are leaving themselves open to the charge of establishing an investigation with their own terms of reference and reportage. This may well happen in the future. The committee system in the Houses of the Oireachtas cannot make such an investigation because of its party political nature, unlike the situation in the United States Congress where people serve independently on a committee. That culture does not exist in this country, particularly when it comes to politically motivated charges. There is a distinct difference between that and the policy implications resulting from the Abbeylara case. I and my party contend that it would have been a more useful exercise had the Government chosen to work with all parties in both Houses of the Oireachtas to bring about the establishment of these commissions, their terms of reference and their functions.

The Minister of State has stated that once a report comes back from a commission, the Minister must publish it as soon as possible. I make the point that where a report comes back, particularly about a politically sensitive issue, it should be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and placed in the Oireachtas Library. The notion that it comes to a Minister who is a member of a political party, a serving member of Government and a member of the Executive flies in the face of the notion of independence, which, in the final analysis, is what the new commissions will be about.

I ask the Minister of State to consider this proposal, even at this late stage. The House has only one opportunity to get this right. We all support the establishment of these new commissions and the means they will give to find out the truth on many matters of public concern. Some additional thought needs to be given to the exact means by which the commissions are to be established, members to be appointed and the kind of independence which we all wish to give them.