Fergal Browne (Fine Gael)

I am amazed at Senator Mansergh's comment that public servants do not really have the right to question something. In a democracy, everyone has that right. People have a right to be consulted, and the sudden announcement of the decision, without consulting the main players, was a fundamental mistake. I query whether 10,000 civil servants can be moved. Would it not be more realistic to set an initial target of 5,000 and see how that works out? I have spoken to different politicians with far more experience than I who were in Government in the past and who relocated some sections of Departments to different areas. They found it extremely difficult to achieve the numbers. Though they might only have relocated 200, to make up that total they had to go outside their own Department. They could not fill the places from within. When one is moving 10,000 civil servants, one does not have the luxury of going to other Departments; one will have to find them within one's own Department. It will be extremely difficult, and there will be major issues concerning people who refuse to go. Will they be victimised? Will they get the promotions they deserve? If they move, will they stay?

I often meet people in Carlow who have moved from Dublin because the idea of a cheaper house and country life appealed to them. However, once they are there, their children might not even settle in the area and they might well move back to Dublin. These are real issues. Of the 250 due to come to Carlow from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, how many will commute to Dublin every day, and how many will build or buy a house in Carlow, send their children to a local school and actively participate in the community? Will they simply look on it as a job and commute? That would negate the full potential benefit of such decentralisation.

Senator Dardis is aware of the furore regarding Magee Barracks in his own neck of the woods, where I understand that 60 acres of State-owned land are available; yet the Government is looking for land and buildings in Newbridge and the Curragh. That does not make sense. Obviously, Newbridge will be delighted to get a Department and the Curragh is also getting a headquarters. However, when one has a barracks lying idle with 60 acres of land — ten are taken up by other activities — that is certainly an issue.

Bus Éireann is to be privatised within the next few years, or so we are told at the Committee on Transport, but it is down for decentralisation. The numbers there simply do not add up. Those currently working there do not equal those whom it is proposed to move. How can one make a privatised company move to Mitchelstown, for example? It does not make sense. I have asked that question on numerous occasions and have yet to get an answer.

I regret the fact that the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats candidates are using decentralisation as an election gimmick. Some did play a part in it, but in Carlow some people who were not even involved in politics at the time are now taking the credit for it, which is a disgrace. Four years ago Carlow was guaranteed in the Dáil that it would get a Department. We had such a good case that we could not be left out. We were far enough away from Dublin, yet not too far, and we had all the infrastructure.

In Carlow County Council, the former county manager, Tom Dowling, put together a very good plan to explain why Carlow should be chosen. Along with the local politicians, some of whom I acknowledge were Progressive Democrats, the sitting Deputies at the time and the local authority staff, they put together a very good package. We held a meeting in July 2003 to refresh the Department of Finance's mind and we kept lobbying for it. It was a good day when it came to Carlow. The question is whether we will get the full benefit of it. Unfortunately, no really new jobs will be created by the process. People in Carlow to whom I have spoken when canvassing are far more interested in getting a commercial bank in the new business park, which is now lying idle. There are 70 acres of land, but nothing is being done there. That would be far more beneficial in the minds of the people of Carlow.

We must ensure that when the decentralisation process goes ahead we have an efficient public service. While I acknowledge the great work that many people are doing at the Department of Social and Family Affairs, in my experience it is very confusing when one starts ringing people and one is put through from Sligo back to Dublin and all over the country via different subsections. Invariably, after seven or eight telephone calls, one still does not have an answer or a result. We must be conscious of that, which is why Deputy John Bruton, who has been in politics for much longer than most of us, is correct to air his views. Simply because we scatter Departments everywhere does not necessarily mean we will have an efficient public service. That is obviously our ultimate goal. We are all chasing social welfare queries that take weeks. Perhaps if we had a centralised approach in some respects, it might be quicker. People are waiting for social welfare benefits.

Fine Gael is in favour of decentralisation. Unfortunately, the Government's record on the national spatial strategy and the national development plan, which is behind schedule and over budget, does not give us much assurance or confidence. However, it is vital that we continue to receive progress reports regularly. I am glad the Progressive Democrats have accepted the Fine Gael position put forward at the Committee on Finance and the Public Service last week.