Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)

A debate on the Middle East presents a wide ranging brief. We could discuss Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Syria or Lebanon. For the most part, Senators will wish to refer to Iraq and what I call the Holy Land.

We hear continually of Israeli over-reaction. When a group of Palestinians blows up a bus, kills ten people or blows up a building and the Israeli response is gunships and tanks, it is classed as over-reaction. To understand, we must examine the context. Israel was formed after the Second World War by Jews. Through fighting, they formed the new State of Israel, which Ireland was one of the first countries to recognise. Palestinians were displaced and many are for the third and fourth generations living in refugee camps in horrible conditions. There are difficulties preventing the Israelis from giving land back to the Palestinians and allowing a self-governing, separate state of Palestine to exist. There are Palestinian groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad which do not want separate states of Palestine and Israel. Their sole raison d'être is the complete destruction of the State of Israel. We need only think of the Six Day War, the Palestinian attack at the 1972 Olympics, hijacking and suicide bombing, all of which serve merely to reinforce Israeli fears. They see themselves surrounded by enemies on all sides.

It is often asked why the Israelis do not accept United Nations Security Council resolutions. Israel is not simply a secular state. It is the only Jewish state and its inhabitants see themselves being continually outvoted by Christian and, especially, Muslim states. I spoke to a number of people from Israel who expressed very little confidence in the UN. One can imagine what the scenario would be if Ireland were the only Christian state with all others being either Jewish or Muslim and was constantly voted down at the United Nations. Israel may be wrong on this point, but its point of view must be understood. It sees itself as a state with only one ally, the United States of America. Israel can only continue to exist because of the in-flow of subsidies from the USA and funds from Jewish organisations around the world. As long as the USA supports Israel, there will be no change of policy.

Israel is a good ally of the USA. It has nuclear weapons, the world's third largest air force and it supports the USA in the area. In turn, the USA supports Israel. The only way forward is to adhere to the road map which was agreed some time ago. While we should support a withdrawal from the occupied territories, Israel's security must be guaranteed by the USA impartially while international support for Palestine is guaranteed without supporting terrorist groups. I have visited the region many times. It is very difficult in Ireland to appreciate the role of religion there. It has a profound effect. It is not the case, as it is here and in other countries, that people worship on a Saturday and Sunday before simply heading home.

Some two years ago, the then Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr. George Carey, gathered together important figures from the Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths who met for three days at Alexandria. Among those present were the Latin Patriarch Michael Sabbah, two archbishops representing respectively the Greek Orthodox and Romanian Patriarchs, the Anglican Bishop and the Greek Malachite Bishop of Galilee. Rabbi Michael Melchior, the then Deputy Foreign Minister of Israel, led a delegation composed of five other rabbis including the Chief Rabbi of the Sephardi, Eliahu Bakshi Doron. There was also a Muslim delegation composed of the Chief Justice of the Sharia Courts Sheikh Taisir Tamimi and Minister of State for the Palestinian Authority Sheikh Tal El Sider and two others. In the concluding declaration, to which the highest Muslim dignitary in Egypt, the Grand Sheikh of Al Azhar University in Cairo was one of the signatories, a commitment was made to re-establishing real peace in Jerusalem and the Holy Land and ending violence. Violence must be opposed by all people of good faith who are called upon to oppose incitement, hatred and misrepresentation. The declaration has had an effect and note has been taken of it.

We must insist on an unequivocal condemnation of terrorism whatever the source and denounce the unjust, humiliating conditions imposed on the Palestinian people as well as the reprisals and retaliations which serve only to increase feelings of frustration and hatred. There must be respect by all parties for the UN resolutions; proportionate use of legitimate means of defence; and the duty of the parties involved in the conflict to protect the holy places which are so important to the three monotheistic religions and for the heritage of all mankind.

All the talk in recent weeks has been about the horrible pictures of US soldiers torturing, humiliating and sexually abusing Iraqi combatants and civilians. Why are we so shocked about this? It is because we do not expect this sort of behaviour from the world's greatest democracy. However, let us think back to Vietnam — was it not much the same? Some 10,000 people were massacred at Hue by the Americans. Some 58,000 Americans lost their lives in Vietnam, along with 3.5 million Vietnamese — for what, I do not know. In the My Lai massacre, American soldiers went into a village and shot the men, raped women and teenage girls before shooting them, bayoneted babies and then sat down and had their lunch among the mayhem. This was captured on video. Things are no different now.

The Nazis, when they went into Russia, hung people from lampposts and put old people out in the cold. Then, when the Russians went into Germany, they raped German women. We must also remember Pol Pot in Cambodia and the Pinochet regime in Chile, which was supported by the USA. There are no differences among any of these regimes. The list is endless — Suharto, Pinochet, Marcos and Saddam Hussein were all supported by the West, particularly by the USA. They were supplied with arms; there was an international outcry, then civil war, followed by reconstruction contracts.

As I have said before, if Iraq produced bananas rather than oil we would have seen no war. I was one of the people who said the war was unjustified in the first place. I said this because I know that war brutalises people. We should not be too shocked when we see pictures of the results. The UK was found guilty in the European Court of Human Rights of having tortured republican prisoners at Castlereagh. The French tortured the Algerians. Anyone who has been on the Champs Elysées on Bastille Day will have seen the French Foreign Legion wearing big leather aprons and carrying hatchets. If one does not know what they are for, one can use one's imagination. Torture has also occurred in Turkish jails.

Torture is synonymous with dictatorial regimes and war. We must state this clearly. War brutalises people. Soldiers are trained to kill. It is difficult to kill a friend or someone who is similar to oneself, but somebody who is totally different can be thought of as subhuman and is easy to kill. It is easy to kill or torture gooks, wops, slit-eyes, Jews or Arabs. The more different they are, the easier it is to hurt them. If they are subhuman, one can extract information and humiliate them through torture. All armies have reported cases of rape, including the British in Cyprus and our own Army in certain cases abroad. During the Civil War, a few Free State soldiers blew up nine republicans at Ballyseedy by tying them to a mine. Even our own Government at that time ordered that 77 people were to be executed in retaliation for assassinations. That was a peculiar action for a Government to take. It is the same everywhere. Before the American soldiers went into Kuwait they were shown four hours of hardcore pornography, after which they buried alive thousands of conscripts.

None of this can be justified, but it is understandable in the context of war. We must respect human dignity, but at the same time we must try to understand what is happening and not be hypocritical. Let us not try to blame the American soldiers who are indoctrinated into blind obedience, with their cries of "Sir, yes Sir!" and "Unit, corps, God, country." These soldiers are not conscripts; they are mostly volunteers. They offer their lives for what they believe in. It is their political masters who deserve the blame. These are the people who want war to secure oil resources, to reward contracting companies for campaign donations and to reward arms manufacturers over and over. That is the real problem in the Middle East. Regimes are supported until they are no longer useful. Where did Saddam Hussein obtain his arms? He got them from the French, the Americans, the British and others.

These soldiers have been torturing people, but they are torturing themselves as well. We must try to understand that they are brutalised by war. We must condemn war and condemn particularly the people who cause wars, while trying to stop them. We cannot solve the Middle East problem without the co-operation of the USA and Mr. Bush. I would love to meet the American President when he is here and say a few things such as this to him. In some ways I admire Mr. Bush, but there are other things about him that I abhor. I do not suppose I will meet him but if I do I will certainly say these things to him. The European Union, in formulating its defence policy, will undoubtedly come into conflict with the USA at times.

We cannot give up on the Middle East, just as we cannot give up on anything in this life. We must keep on trying. We must use whatever means we can, including religious means, conferences and meetings. As the Minister of State said, we must speak out against what is happening in the Middle East. The Minister, Deputy Cowen, did this recently, but he did not please anybody, particularly the Israelis. He told the truth. In the matter of allegations of torture in Iraq, we must not focus all our attention on the soldiers, but we must concentrate on the political masters who sent them there. This is the real problem. It is only with their help, particularly that of the USA, that we will be able to solve the crisis in the Middle East.