Joe O'Toole (Independent)

There is no party issue involved here. No one on this side is more concerned about this question than anybody on the Government side. I concede that point, since everyone has the same view on the matter.

Whereas the Cathaoirleach is absolutely right that it would be inappropriate to discuss the issue and the person, it is crucial that we discuss the procedure. I want to know what is a fair procedure. I firmly believe that, if a joint committee investigated, came to a conclusion and presented it to the House, its members would not be entitled to vote again in the discussion in the House. That is only one simple point. On the issue of party or group Whips, I agree with the point made by Senator Brian Hayes.

I am not saying this to test the Cathaoirleach's judgment in any way. I respect it because he is well motivated, but I must raise this point with the Leader. We are now walking, with our eyes open, into a situation where we will be involved in a procedure of this House on which we have never had a discussion. I have been a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges of this House for 17 years and we have never looked at this issue. No one has any input. We do not know the right or wrong way, what a fair procedure is or how it should be operated. Everyone's views in this are important. I would like to hear people on both sides of the House say how they feel a fair procedure might be put in place.

I would like to correct one matter. The Taoiseach said yesterday that there were only two precedents for this in previous centuries. He is incorrect because there is a precedent from the 20th century. That paragraph from our Constitution was lifted by the Indian Parliament, which had an impeachment process against a judge ten years ago based on precisely the same words, except that they had "proven misbehaviour" instead of "stated misbehaviour". They went through all sorts of hoops and ultimately the motion was lost after two challenges to the Supreme Court. This is an absolute mess. Why can we not trust ourselves to say how we think we should go about it and present our views to the Taoiseach and Government before they draft their motion? I cannot think of anything more important.