Mary Henry (Independent)

There appear to be two thresholds in the Bill. Under the section on fitness to be tried, section 3(b) states that the courts should determine "if the accused person is suffering from a mental disorder, within the meaning of the Act of 2001." If it is suitable there, why is it unsuitable for the whole Bill? Under subsections (7) and (8), the courts are supposed to use the mental disorder definition from the Mental Health Act. Subsection (7) states:

Where on the trial of an accused person the question arises as to whether or not the person is fit to be tried and the court considers that it is expedient and in the interests of the accused so to do, it may defer consideration of the question until any time before the opening of the case for the defence and if, before the question falls to be determined, the jury by the direction of the court or the court, as the case may be, return a verdict in favour of the accused or find the accused person not guilty, as the case may be, on the count or each of the counts on which the accused is being tried the question shall not be determined and the person shall be acquitted.

The Minister said that he does not want the Mental Health Act definition used in the Bill, but it is referred to in this section.

Subsection (8) states:

Upon a determination having been made by the court that an accused person is unfit to be tried it may on application to it in that behalf allow evidence to be adduced before it as to whether or not the accused person committed the act alleged and if the court is satisfied that there is a reasonable doubt as to whether the accused committed the act alleged, it shall order the accused to be discharged.

Why is the definition from the Mental Health Act used in this subsection yet not used in the definition?

The Minister's definition of thresholds for mental disorder introduces a lower one than that in the Mental Health Act. The public is entitled to have the higher definition applied. Under the Minister's definition of mental disorder, it can be claimed that 25% of the population will suffer some form of mental disorder. If those with Prozac prescriptions are included, the definition could apply to anybody. Why not use the higher definition as in the Mental Health Act?

This Bill will treat people differently. For example, a large number of mentally ill people used to congregate at Baggot Street Bridge. Due to my complaints that they were getting so little treatment there, they have been moved on to some other bridge. Occasionally, some of the local shopkeepers had trouble with them with items such as milk being stolen. In general, the shopkeepers were understanding about this and did not contact the police. However, what if a shopkeeper got fed up and decided to contact the police? Under this Bill, that same mentally ill person will have a different test of mental disorder applied to him because the shopkeeper pressed charges. Is this right under human rights legislation when this is the same mentally ill person? Why is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform persisting in deciding that these people must be treated differently?

The Minister's threshold of mental illness is much lower than the one put forward by the Mental Health Act. I cannot understand this but I am sure that the Minister will elucidate matters. Why is he using the definition in the most important subsection? Mentally ill people must be taken out of the criminal law system. At the same time, their rights should not be destroyed. Mentally ill people have certain rights and, irrespective of whether they are charged for stealing a bottle of milk , they must get the same treatment in the law.

From the Minister's comments, he does not have a high opinion of psychiatrists andsociologists.