Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

Yes. As long as it comes from both sides, I must be getting it right.

Some of the penalties in the Bill are District Court summary conviction penalties but others for offences such as employing unlicensed staff or acting as a security provider without a licence attract indictable penalties of five years' imprisonment and substantial fines on indictment. If an offence is punishable by a term of five years' imprisonment, it becomes an arrestable offence, which gives the Garda power to detain a person, carry out searches in certain circumstances, question people and so on, which would not be the case in regard to a summary offence. The Bill has teeth without being draconian.

Senator Quinn mentioned the issue of the future we are facing. Whatever view one holds about where our society is going, private security will increasingly be part of our lives. Yesterday I met a delegation from the South Dublin Chamber of Commerce to discuss the problems it was having in a particular shopping centre. It is unreasonable to expect the State will be in a position to provide store detectives through the Garda. That will not happen. Because of our modern methods of retailing and marketing, in which everything must be open and accessible rather than behind counters and up on shelves, it is the essence of modern retailing, marketing and entertainment that those who provide these services must provide the appropriate security.

In Cork, for example, there is a partnership among the Judiciary, the Garda and the entertainment industry in which norms are applied to the number of door security staff appropriate to a venue, the use of closed circuit television systems, opening hours and so on. The three partners, particularly the Judiciary, the licensing body, are aware that these agreed norms amount to a partnership. This has had useful repercussions. I am told by senior gardaí in Cork that the number of public order offences went down by one third once this new approach was taken. A key element, undoubtedly, is that the owners of premises are investing in proper supervisory staff, management and training.

The question of whether it is appropriate for gardaí to provide security services was raised. It is not appropriate for gardaí to provide security services of the ordinary kind.