Michael McDowell (Dublin South East, Progressive Democrats)

I can. That is the point. This afternoon I could lift the phone and give a direction and nobody would ever know about it. If Senators want to know what is happening, what I have in mind would give the Commissioner great independence but in the last analysis provide the Minister, with the concurrence of the Government, the power to give a formal directive, provided the Government is willing to publicly inform both Houses of the Oireachtas. This will prevent a Minister lifting a phone in a bad humour one afternoon or influencing the outcome of any individual investigation or prosecution.

I listened intently to the points made in the debate on the appointment of chief superintendents and superintendents. It was suggested that the role of Government in such appointments was a bad thing. The situation at present is that I bring a memorandum to Cabinet almost every fortnight appointing people to the position of superintendent and chief superintendent. That is done by a totally above board, merit-based appointments system with outside lay observers on the board. I intend to examine carefully what was said by Senator O'Toole, that it should be provided in the Bill that such appointments are made in accordance with a regulatory framework. I am positively disposed towards amending the Bill to make that clear.

Such appointments are not done with a view to extending Government patronage, it is to give the holders of that office independence vis-À-vis the Commissioner. It is to make it clear to them that they hold those offices because, like officers in the Defence Forces, the Government of the day has appointed them. It is in support of their independence and status as senior officers of the Garda Síochána that they are put in place with the additional sanction of Government and they are not simply creatures of the appointments or promotion policy of the Commissioner of the day.

I have said enough about the joint policing committees. In regard to volunteer members I stress again that this is a limited skeletal outline of a statutory power for a Government to establish a voluntary police reserve if circumstances in the future so warrant. There is no formed or formulated intention to do so now. We are the only common law country with our system which does not have any voluntary police reserve. I am wholly opposed to the concept of economising through the use of yellow pack police and undercutting professional standards in policing using a volunteer reserve. That is not and would not be my aim. It is important that the Garda Síochána should have roots in the community. In time it will be regarded as a good thing that young men and women in their own community will volunteer to be supportive volunteer reservists for the police and that this will extend the sense of identity between the community and the Garda Síochána. This will not threaten the vocational interests or the representative interests of the associations in respect of their members' interests.

The question of secret societies was referred to. They are defined in the Offences against the State Act and the Treasonable Offences Act 1925. Effectively they are defined by reference to organisations whose members take an oath or affirmation to keep the proceedings of those societies and their decisions secret in all circumstances.

I welcome the general support for the ombudsman commission. Some have asked if every investigation should be undertaken, as a matter of statute law, by persons who are not gardaí, meaning the effective removal from the independent commission of the right to use gardaí on certain occasions to carry out investigations as it deems fit. It would not be wise to do that. The legislation in Northern Ireland does not allow for it. As a matter of practice, the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman, Nuala O'Loan, undertakes her own investigations, but she has a substantial pool of investigators across the United Kingdom on which to draw. If I was to put in place a force which was capable of carrying out every investigation, from bad manners to unlawful killing, I would have to create a force of investigators of between 100 and 200 people whose sole function would be to police the police. That is not something I could sustain in current circumstances.

The new arrangements for the ombudsman commission are not intended as a criticism of the membership of the outgoing Garda Síochána Complaints Board, which has pointed out the inadequacy of the arrangements under which it operates. I pay tribute to it for all the work it has done. It may be, as Senator White said, that some have been disappointed with the outcome of its activities, but this does not detract from the fact that it operated in good faith, however undernourished by resources and undermined by statutory inadequacies.

Senator Hayes asked why a three-person body rather than a one-person body was required to fulfil the membership functions of the ombudsman commission. Given the size of the Garda Síochána and the State, the task being conferred on the commission will be better discharged if there are three persons on the board. It will prevent the possibility of a simple personality clash between the Garda Commissioner and the commission.

I presume there are many points with which some Senators feel I have not dealt. I could elaborate for an hour or an hour and a half if the order of House permitted my dealing with individual points. I thank my officials for all the work they did in researching responses to the Senators' points. I assure the House that many of the very important points that have been made on the general principle of the Bill will be considered at greater length on Committee Stage.

I thank the House for the supportive approach it has adopted. It has been a great pleasure for me to be present throughout this Second Stage debate and to hear the wide variety of views and the very strong underlying support of the Senators for the Garda Síochána.

As President of the Justice and Home Affairs Council of the European Union, I could not let this opportunity go by without sending to my Spanish confrere on that body the heartfelt sympathy of the Irish people on the terrible atrocities carried out today in Madrid. Our hearts are with those concerned. The scourge of terrorism must be eradicated across the European Union.