Shane Ross (Independent)

I came to the Chamber with an open mind on this issue because I have a fairly long memory of what happens with such matters. Inevitably, whoever is in Opposition picks up these issues, hits the Government with them and then when in Government behaves just like the criticised Government, and vice versa. However, listening to Senator Minihan I became convinced that this side of the House is correct.

There are serious flaws in the arguments being made by the Government side of the House. The arguments are utterly inconsistent with behaviour and speeches made previously. The principal argument is that the fund has reached such a size that it cannot be left to people who are independent of Government. Have those on the Government benches never heard of the State agency FÁS which has a budget of €2 billion a year? Do they know about the IDA, Enterprise Ireland or any other bodies which administer grants at their own discretion? Those bodies are trusted, rightly or wrongly, and some of us might be critical of the manner in which they distribute their funds. They do so without too much Government interference although some pressure has been apparent.

This particular fund appears to me to compete, not with the Government but with the national lottery. Members may remember the setting up of the national lottery, which incidentally reported figures today. At the time we got similar assurances that the national lottery funds would be ring-fenced and not interfered with by politicians and that money would be granted to specific projects, originally just sport. The funds grew, rather like this, beyond all expectations and party politicians and Governments of both views got their paws up front as fast as they could. Immediately, the original purpose of the national lottery fund was diluted and the moneys were distributed, and have been since, for the advantage of politicians in certain areas, depending on who is in power. That is what has happened.

This fund will be somewhat smaller, although at €400 million I agree with the Government that it is quite large. I remind it, however, that just a few months ago in this House Senator Mansergh described €380 million as a pittance. I do not know whether €400 million is a pittance or a very large sum as one day it seems a large sum and a pittance another day. It all depends on which arm of the Government is speaking on which day and on which issue.

It is not particularly easy to listen to the admonishments of the Opposition because it did not do much with regard to the abuses of the national lottery funds when in power. It appears to be a regrettable feature of Irish political life that when politicians see a lot of loot they go for it. I am not suggesting any corruption in the matter, contrary to what I think the Minister of State indicated in his final paragraph. What I do suggest is that politicians find it impossible to resist an amount of money because they want to be seen as the people who distribute it, which is natural. However, it is our job to try and stop this happening.

There is no problem about €400 million being distributed by independent people. I suggest that the people who distribute it will have less reason to benefit if they are seriously independent than politicians. The Minister realises this. I was a member of a political party for a while where I saw the mechanism of how grants and moneys were administered. It is quite obvious that this money is good news. There is no downside to approximately €400 million to give away. Politicians want to be the people giving it away and to benefit by eventually getting the votes of the recipients. The Minister and those on the Government side of the House want to be the people who make the announcements. Before my unhappy departure from Fine Gael, I used to get notes from various Ministers telling me something was going to happen in my area — usually money being allocated — on a certain date. The message was for my eyes only and I was to announce it in order to get the credit for allocating taxpayers' money. This has been happening since the foundation of the State. I no longer get the notes but I expect it still happens.

Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrats Deputies, Senators and councillors will get wind of where this money will go first and will go to the constituencies to announce it. This will be another opportunity for this sort of time honoured abuse. Why can we not leave this be and say thank God, is this not wonderful, we have €400 million for disabled people and those with other disadvantages? I do not understand why we cannot commit ourselves to getting people who are not seen to be overtly political to distribute such moneys.

I read the Minister's speech and, as far as I can see, his reason is that it would not be fair to ask the board's representatives to go before the Committee of Public Accounts. I am open to correction and I apologise if I read it wrongly. Why not? What is wrong with it? They would not have much explaining to do. All they would have to do is say why they gave money to people. Why are politicians any better at doing that than people who have no axes to grind and nothing to benefit from it? They cannot be any better at it and they can be a lot worse.