John Paul Phelan (Fine Gael)

I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for his contribution. I thank the Leader of the House for arranging statements on the issue of the national stadium. Persistence pays off. I constantly raised this matter on the Order of Business a couple of weeks ago and I thank the Leader for agreeing to arrange this debate.

There were a number of comments in the Minister's address which made me wonder whether he was having a laugh or whether the official who composed the script did not know what he or she was on about. The Minister said that the stadium at Lansdowne Road and the announcement by the Government was visionary and timely. To describe the upgrading of a stadium as visionary and timely when five years have elapsed since it was proposed beggars belief. I cannot understand how the Minister can say it.

I compliment him on putting a brave face on what has been a remarkable climb-down by the Government over the past couple of years. In his closing remarks, the Minister said that a clear Government decision has been taken and that the work can proceed without further delay and without distractions. Clear Government decisions were made in this regard before. A clear Government decision was made regarding the land at Abbotstown. It did not proceed without distraction and in fact has not proceeded at all. I wonder whether the commitment expressed by the Minister today will be delivered. Two central problems have arisen with the debate on the national stadium. One is the delay that has occurred over the past few years. The Minister is right in many of the points he made about the delay and the possible effects that can have for the IRFU and the FAI with regard to qualifying matches for European championships, World Cups and so on.

The other issue is the amount of money that has already been spent on the lands at Abbotstown on drawing up plans and proposals which will not be brought to fruition. It seems to me that a large amount of money has been expended in those areas. A committee was set up by the Taoiseach in 1998 to investigate the possibility of building a new national stadium. In 1999 the FAI came forward with proposals for Eircom Park, which it had fully costed. It had a site and it felt it had the resources to go ahead with that project, but it was scuppered, purely and simply, by the Taoiseach's ego. Supported by the Government and even the Progressive Democrats at that time, he decided that Campus and Stadium Ireland — the "Bertie bowl" project at Abbotstown, as it came to be known — would proceed rather than Eircom Park.

Every possible obstacle was placed in the way of the FAI. It was even tempted by funding commitments from the Government to drop its plans for Eircom Park and back the proposals for Abbotstown. The national stadium at Abbotstown was first announced on 26 January 2000 by the Taoiseach. Remarkably, it was almost four years to the day before those proposals were officially jettisoned and the Minister made his announcement last week with regard to Lansdowne Road.

I would like to make clear, as I have done before, the position of Fine Gael with regard to the question of the national stadium. As far back as 2001, the Fine Gael spokesperson on sport, Deputy Deenihan, launched a document on the national stadium. It was stated clearly that it was Fine Gael Party policy at the time, and it remains so, that Lansdowne Road should be upgraded as the new national stadium. This was at the height of the fiasco that we now know as the "Bertie bowl". It is truly remarkable that at that particular time the FAI, the IRFU, members of the Government and particularly the Progressive Democrats said nothing in support of Lansdowne Road. They were all bought and sold on the notion of the "Bertie bowl" in Abbotstown.

It is clear also that the man who made most play at the general election on the issue of the "Bertie bowl", the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, who was a member of the Government in 2001, had little to say on the issue at that particular time. However, he jumped on the political bandwagon before the last general election, accused the Taoiseach of being like Mr. Ceaucescu in Romania and made other such remarks. Now, it seems, the policy has been reversed by Government.

I wish to ask the Minister a number of specific questions with regard to what has taken place at Abbotstown and what exactly the proposals are for Lansdowne Road. I would welcome a response, if he can provide one. A number of different figures have been bandied about as to the amount that has been spent thus far on Abbotstown. Will the Minister inform the House in his closing remarks as to how much money has been outlayed on Abbotstown? I want a specific reference to the amount spent on the aquatic centre. Nobody would deny this is a great facility which was used extraordinarily well in the Special Olympics and is a credit to the people who built it. I support it fully, but how much did it cost? How much did it cost to relocate the Government Departments that were already in situ on the site in Abbotstown, prior to the Campus and Stadium Ireland development?

How much has it cost to draw up plans for the different arenas that were proposed at Abbotstown? I would also like the Minister to comment on the whole issue of consultants and consultancy fees. We have seen in the newspapers in the last couple of weeks since this issue again gained prominence a number of references to different consultancy groups who still claim fees and are being paid for work that is allegedly being carried out in Abbotstown. I would appreciate it if the Minister could outline how much has been spent on consultancy fees, how much is being spent and what the future holds in that particular area over the course of the next few years.

I would also like to ask him whether, if the development proceeds at Lansdowne Road, it will be a phased project. Is the stadium to be pulled down all at once and what will the sporting bodies that currently use it, the FAI and the IRFU, do about their home fixtures? Will they have to find alternative stadiums to hold the games that would have been held in Lansdowne Road if it was not under reconstruction? If they have to find alternative stadia, what is the view of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism as regards in which locations they will hold their home matches?

It has been estimated that the new stadium will cost in the region of €250 million. One of the figures mentioned as regards Abbotstown is €220 million. It is clear that the money was there and has been spent. Over the past five years the Government has largely squandered that money, which could have at this stage ensured the development of a new national stadium, either at Lansdowne Road or some other location in the capital city. It is not good enough for the Minister and Government Senators to clap themselves on the back for what has been done. The reality is that five important years have been wasted. Irish sport finds itself facing the possibility of not having an arena over the next couple of years in which to hold international soccer and rugby matches, if Lansdowne Road is to be developed. That is not a position with which any Department of sport can be satisfied.