Don Lydon (Fianna Fail)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, to the House. We were fortunate to have both the Minister, Deputy Cowen, and the Minister of State in the House during the debate and both are mentioned in the motion, which is to their credit and seldom seen.

This issue concerns two peoples rather than two countries, most of whom want peace with justice but some of whom do not want peace at all. We must deal with extremists who do not want peace just as we dealt with such extremists in this country, and there is a lesson in that regard for this conflict also. However, we must also deal with the middle ground and ask such people to exercise moral pressure on the extremists on both sides.

There is a seemingly intractable problem. Israel is a state founded on religion, a Jewish state. I have spoken to Jewish Israeli people and found that they believe they are under siege, surrounded by enemies, out-voted on most issues by a large number of Muslim states at a UN they do not trust, attacked by terrorists and suicide bombers who indiscriminately blow up Jewish men, women and children and besieged by terrorist groups whose only ambition is the complete destruction of the state of Israel, all of which points are true. Many also believe that one of the most appropriate forms of reparation would be the removal of terrorist organisations from the land of Israel and the acceptance of Israel's ancient sovereignty over Gaza, Judea and Samaria. It is a stark viewpoint if one considers what is being done, and perhaps helps us to understand why Israel responds so vehemently against what it sees as attacks.

On the other side is a dispossessed people, whose lands have been taken and who are harassed on a daily basis. I have visited what I will call the Holy Land rather than Israel or Palestine, although God knows it is far from holy. I have spoken to Jews, Muslims and Christians there and have seen something of what has happened. For example, I have spoken to Palestinians near Jericho who one day received a knock on the door. Outside were tanks, bulldozers and armed men who told them that the land was given to them by God, a land flowing with milk and honey, and that they were taking it back. They gave the people perhaps 20 minutes to leave, taking only a few souvenirs and documents, and then razed the house to the ground and took the land. This happened not to interlopers but to people whose ancestors had been living there for 300 years. Their land was taken and given to settlers. This is the same as if one was sitting at home in Dublin, a fellow knocked at the door, with tanks outside, and said, "I am from the Tuatha de Danann. We were here 3,000 years ago. This is ours — get out."

These people have been living in abject poverty for the past 50 years. There is no doubt that the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians, are oppressed. It is not permitted to build a Christian church anywhere in Israel. These people are not exactly tolerant. Israel has a huge army, the third largest air force and nuclear weapons. The saddest aspect is that the last symbol of Jewish resistance to the Roman occupation was at Massada outside Jerusalem. Nowadays when they bring in their elite regiments, they have a torch light ceremony, which is the nearest thing to a Nazi ceremony one could see. I do not think they realise what they are doing.

We could talk all night about the atrocities on either side, which will not get us anywhere. What we must do is help the Palestinians in a humanitarian way. We must try to isolate the terrorists and persuade the Israelis to ease the plight of the oppressed and stop the disproportionate response. The Minister referred to the wall. This is a horrific wall which is not a great omen of peace. It is a tinderbox waiting to be lit. The Palestinians appear to be abandoned by the Arabs. They get no help. Many of the Arab states were created by the stroke of a pen and supported by the US, the Saudis, Kuwait and so on. Even though these countries are governed by royal families, they are dictatorships. Thousands of people live off the land and there is no democracy. However, there is always hope. There have been intractable problems. Someone referred to the Berlin Wall and there is the example of Northern Ireland.

As the Minister, Deputy Cowen, said, Israelis need not live in a fortress and Palestinians need not live in hopelessness and indignity. However, they need to take a risk. As members of the European Union, and having gone through a similar situation ourselves, we might be in a position to offer help and ask these people to take a risk. Mr. Sharon is coming over here and there are visits to Mr. Arafat and so on. These people should sit down and talk because there is always a middle ground. There is always a way to achieve peace, although one may not see it at the time. It takes a lot of effort, endeavour, hope and trust. Trust is only built a little at a time, but by taking a risk the prize is great. I do not think we should ever back away from it. I encourage the Minister to take a risk and I commend the motion to the House.