Brendan Ryan (Labour)

I hate to shake my grey hairs but it is 22 years since I was elected to this House. Many people, including public servants outside and some inside the Houses, forget that this is an autonomous House. If someone wants to change the rules relating to security here, it cannot be done without the agreement of this House through its Committee on Procedures and Privileges. A picture cannot be put up on the walls in this building without the agreement of both Houses of the Oireachtas and that agreement is not automatically forthcoming, as people have found out on occasion. To suggest that this commission can be established without reflecting the autonomy of both Houses by having both the Cathaoirleach and the Ceann Comhairle and the senior civil servant of both Houses members of it is to fly in the face of the absolute distinction between the two Houses. It is to pretend that there is some overarching concept of the Oireachtas that is institutionalised and that can be used to circumvent the fact that these are two autonomous Houses.

As Senator Mansergh said, there are many Ministers, particularly those who are inexperienced or who have never been Members of this House, who misunderstand or underestimate it. They get over this after they get a couple of roastings here because they have not prepared properly. It would be regrettable if this issue was to be the current Minister of State's baptism of fire. Either he comes up with a better argument or he is flying in the face of the established traditions of the Houses of the Oireachtas for many years.

There is absolute autonomy between the Houses. Nothing can be done in the Oireachtas without both Houses agreeing. Even though we all accept the constitutional primacy of the Dáil, the Constitution, while it clearly establishes that primacy, also specifically establishes the autonomy of the Seanad within the structure of the Oireachtas. The principle is not who is Clerk of either House, it is to have the procedures, wisdom and autonomy of both Houses properly represented on the commission. To say, as the Minister of State said, that it is all about Accounting Officers is a nonsense and unworthy of a man I know to be of considerable ability and intelligence because it is much more than this.

The Clerk of the Dáil is the civil servant who will run the commission. That is what civil servants do and they do it well. None of us could function in politics if we did not have good civil servants who advise, support and assist us. The Secretary General of the commission will be the adviser, supporter, assistant and provider of expertise.