Derek McDowell (Labour)

It is useful that we are having the debate. It is something that we have been skirting around for many years. Fine Gael has done us some service in being perhaps more honest than they or others have been in the past in saying bluntly that they are in favour of ditching neutrality or what we have come to think of as neutrality. For the life of me, I do not really see any huge difference between the view being put forward in the Fianna Fáil amendment and that put forward in the Fine Gael motion. Both of them are effectively saying the same thing. The difference is purely in terms of language. Fianna Fáil still genuflects in the direction of neutrality and Fine Gael says it is no longer in favour of it, but in fact the ultimate position in which both parties find themselves is more or less the same.

I must be straight-up about this and say that my own party is not a million miles away from that thinking either. There are some in my party who would not like to hear me say that, but it is the truth. Let me state the official line before I go any further. It is true that the party continues to support neutrality. As the Minister knows, we were party to discussions prior to the second referendum on the Nice treaty, which agreed the wording that effectively placed a constitutional bar on joining a mutual defence pact or any military alliance. We were happy with that. I endorse the notion that the people should decide whether we should ultimately take that extra step to commit ourselves to membership of an alliance, which would require us to automatically come to the defence of a partner state in the European Union which was the subject of aggression. Perhaps the debate we are having this evening will foreshadow a bigger one to come.

Senator O'Toole asked what is neutrality. I agree with him that we have not been neutral for many years. The only time when it could truly be said that we were neutral was during the Second World War. Like others, with the benefit of 60 years' hindsight, I see very little of which to be proud in not having participated in the fight against fascism then. It may be a bit rich to criticise those who made a decision that appeared to them to be right at the time, but it is difficult for those of our generation to be proud of that decision from the perspective of moral or political principle.