Brendan Ryan (Labour)

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 4, subsection (1), line 17, to delete "or a court".

This amendment goes to the nub of the views expressed on the degree to which the European Convention on Human Rights will be incorporated into Irish law. The definition of "organ of the State", set out in page 4 of the Bill, specifically excludes, "the President or the Oireachtas or either House of the Oireachtas or a Committee of either such House or a Joint Committee of both such Houses or a court". The Minster's argument against the incorporation of a court was concerned with the separation of powers.

The separation of powers is a universal principle by which a functioning democracy can be identified, which is the reason I sometimes wonder about the neighbouring jurisdiction which has not yet managed to achieve the kind of clarity in this area we take for granted. The effect of the amendment would be no more than to provide that courts must operate according to the principles of the European Convention on Human Rights. It is argued that this would be seen as interfering with the courts. However, there are other areas where we are happy to prescribe to them how they deal with people's rights. An example would where a person wishes to speak or have a trial conducted in Irish. The Judiciary is required to facilitate the request by doing the business of the court through Irish or providing interpreters. We expect the Judiciary to operate according to certain procedures and it does so because we have a good Judiciary and courts system.

I do not understand the reason the courts cannot be incorporated into the definition of "organs of the State". It might be better to make separate provision for this because if the amendment is accepted in its present form, there may be an implication that the Judiciary is no more than another "instrument of public policy", to quote a term used by an eminent former Fianna Fáil leader when referring to RTE. It is argued that the courts are bound by the Constitution, which is superior law. However, if other countries as committed as we are to the separation of powers can do this, I am not persuaded that we could not.