David Norris (Independent)

I am much more in sympathy with the Minister's position. He made it quite clear that the Probation Act can come into play on the first offence, which is perfectly satisfactory. It is very interesting to hear from the honourable, decent people representing the drinks lobby – they have stated their interest – that it does not matter how high the fine is. They will pay the fine but do not want to be closed. That tells me one thing: close them if we are serious about this. That is the only thing that will hurt and it also tells us how much money they are making if they do not care about paying fines of €5,000 or €10,000. If that is cheaper than being closed then it tells us where the money is. We should hit them in the pocket and make them behave.

Senator Bohan has a very high reputation, as do most of his members, and the decent ones will get the benefit of the Probation Act so that this will not happen again. As for the others, the Minister should take the advice he has been unintentionally given and make this pinch. The only way to make it pinch is to close the pubs.