Derek McDowell (Labour)

I accept that they are related. They deal with the same issue, though they approach it from different angles. I am happy to have the amendments taken together.

The Labour Party amendments seek to apply the reasonable steps mentioned in section 4(4) to all of section 4 rather than simply to section 4(1)(c). The problem arises from the definition of "drunken". While the Bill defines "drunkenness", to make it an offence to supply drink to a drunken person demands that the supplier knows the person is drunk and is a danger to himself or herself, according to the definition in the Bill. It is fair to say, as Senator O'Toole has pointed out, that one would not necessarily know that. If a person approaches a bar, an instant judgment must be formed as to whether a person is drunk to the extent that supplying him or her with drink is an offence. It will not always be terribly clear that is the case.

It is not unreasonable in those circumstances to assert that is a defence for a publican to prove he took reasonable steps. He should be provided with some defence, rather than, as appears to be the Minister's intention, subject to an automatic offence. As it stands, the section provides that if a person is proven to have been drunk, the publican has no defence.