David Norris (Independent)

I am happy to do so.

I am absolutely delighted with the Minister of State's definition. I am grateful that he has indicated that an organ of the State is not an organ of the State for the purposes of the Bill. How absolutely wonderful that is. We are really in some kind of cloud-cuckoo land here, particularly since there are various Supreme Court judgments and texts emanating from the highest levels of the State which refer to courts as "organs of the State". It is a wonderful kind of Alice in Wonderland use of language, and I am grateful that the anomaly has been outlined so firmly.

Perhaps I might comment with regard to one thing the Minister of State said about the difficulties often pleaded by Ministers that, if we try to get into this area, we will create a list system, and it is impossible to create an exhaustive list. That is not what the amendment tabled by Senator Henry and me would do at all. It produces a definition which would catch in the net those bodies which we are concerned might fall outside it such as schools, hospitals and so on. There is still a very good case and the Minister of State is defending himself against a situation which does not occur. We are not suggesting, attempting or trying to encourage the Government to create lists. We are trying to create a form of words that would obviate the need for the creation of lists, instead, by its operation, including elements not currently included or may not be so.

The Minister of State indicated that the Government had taken a "judgment call", as the Americans describe it, on the matter and believes there will be a broad interpretation. However, he has not excluded the possibility of a narrow one – or at least, that is how I understood his remarks. He said he felt the courts would interpret the legislation in a particular way but that is only the Government's view, and Governments have been wrong in the past, particularly in assessing such legal matters. The Minister of State has accepted that there is a possibility, which he and the Government regard as minimal, but they still accept that it is a matter of judgment and that there is a possibility that a narrow interpretation might be placed on the legislation by the courts. All our amendment would do would be to resolve the situation in advance of going to court and finding that the law was defective.