Derek McDowell (Labour)

Senator Brian Hayes stated that the purpose of the motion is to seek clarity. Sadly, the debate has not even come close to delivering clarity. One can do almost anything with statistics. We need some clarity on where we currently stand. We now have roughly 25,000 people on community employment schemes. The Minister of State will say – correctly – that the reduction in the schemes was at least partly presaged in the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness. However, the PPF envisaged reducing the number to 28,000, some 3,000 higher than the current figure and only did so in the context of a shift of schemes or their participants into the social economy.

The Minister of State provided some interesting statistics on the social economy scheme which has been up and running for about two years. With approximately 2,000 people currently employed under its auspices, it is clear, even in the limited context of the agreement reached as part of the PPF, that the Government has reduced the number of community employment participants by at least 5,000 more than was envisaged when the PPF was negotiated with the social partners.

The context of social partnership is very important. One of the central issues for the social partners, particularly the social and voluntary pillar, was the issue of participation in the workforce. It is a betrayal of the people who entered Government Buildings in good faith to negotiate the agreement that the Government has already cut the number of places by about 6,000 more than was envisaged just a few years ago.

What concerns us this evening and, I assume, provided the motivation for the Fine Gael Party in tabling the motion are recent reports that the Government will go much further in cutting community employment places in the coming 12 months. Senator Burke cited a report from The Irish Times a few weeks ago which in turn cited an internal FÁS report presented to the FÁS board in which a cut of 10,000 places on community employment schemes was recommended. In response to questions in the other House tabled since that report was published, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, and, to some extent, the Minister of State in her Department, have hidden behind the phrase "greatly exaggerated" to describe the report. She knows what will happen next year because it has already been agreed. I presume she or the Minister for Finance will tell us precisely what has been agreed, either when the Estimates are produced tomorrow or in subsequent interviews. The Minister of State could provide that information to the House now if he has not already told the Fianna Fáil members at their parliamentary meeting earlier and thus help us at least to provide some clarity to the concerned people in schemes throughout the country.

The real problem is uncertainty. People do not know where they stand. They do not know if they will be allowed to roll over and continue in their scheme next year and the people supervising schemes do not know if the scheme will continue. Such uncertainty is very corrosive.