Martin Mansergh (Fianna Fail)

I warmly welcome this Bill. It is one facet of the tremendous leadership we have had from the Government, the Minister and the Minister of State. Whether it is correct or not, I recognise a contemporary and former colleague from the Permanent Representation in Brussels behind the Minister of State.

The Labour Party should be complimented on the very constructive role it has played since the defeat of the Nice treaty referendum in the Forum, in the debate on this Bill and in helping us get round the neutrality problem. I also pay tribute to the work of the Forum, which I hope will be ongoing.

I agree with Senator Dardis. One is not really talking about a democratic deficit as it is ordinarily understood. The issues are complex and have effects on the ground; they filter down and sometimes people think they have a fait accompli. Broadly, people are happy the Council of Ministers takes decisions but there is a difference between representative Government and direct democracy. Part of the problem is that we confront people with complex issues because we have to have a referendum on every treaty. As has been said, the problem is an information surfeit, not an information deficit, where one must sift through vast amounts of material. I hope the Bill will help distil issues.

I agree that the EU is very open and if one is prepared to take the time one can find out what is going on nearly all the time. The European Council negotiations last night in Berlin are not going to be carried out in front of television cameras – no negotiation in the world could be done like that – but subject to that caveat the EU is virtually the most transparent organisation that exists.

For better or worse, as a result of the referendum defeat we have people's attention on European issues in a way we have not had for a long time – probably since soon after we entered Europe. We need to keep people's attention, or otherwise the gap between perceptions and fears, which can be fanned easily and dangerously, could cause us great difficulties.

I agree entirely with Senator Dardis that except for the most compelling and pressing reason, which does not exist in this case, we have no right as a nation of 4 million people – or even if we were much larger – to veto the wishes of all the other countries. The proper role for us to play in our interests and views is in the course of negotiations. I agree with the Minister's point, which I heard him make last night also. People talk in the most negative fashion about parties exercising a veto in the Northern context, yet in the European context the veto is the most democratic option around. There is an inconsistency there.