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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (1 Feb 2024)

Catherine Murphy: What are we depending on?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (1 Feb 2024)

Catherine Murphy: It would be far preferable that we get that report written and we are going to require this hearing for that.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (1 Feb 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Are we talking about some time in February then?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I am hearing about nurses who have retired for nine months without being paid their pension. What is the time lag and how will it be addressed?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (1 Feb 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Agreed.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I welcome the witnesses. Probably the main reason we invited representatives of Revenue in today, and representatives from the Department of Social Protection last week, is the Karshan judgment and its implications. It is a very welcome judgment because it will clarify matters. Revenue is going to produce a document following on from that. When is it likely to produce it?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: My time is tight and there are a number of questions I want to ask. I am not being rude. It is likely that the committee will write a short report following the meetings with Revenue and the Department of Social Protection. Obviously, there is a third entity, the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, on the employment rights side. We could make a recommendation on the definition of...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Okay, rather than the two Departments.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: That clarifies the matter for me. Revenue gave us a very helpful briefing note, which states that decisions of the individual agencies are not binding on each other. The three agencies are the scope section of the Department of Social Protection, Revenue and the WRC. The entities are independent but are they completely independent? In the past, has Revenue taken a decision of the scope...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I am aware of that. There was a change in 2019 because of the change in the flat rate of the tax allowance scheme. Am I correct to assume that change means that some people will now be assessed as self-employed rather than PAYE workers? How does now that play out, for example, for couriers?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: The flat rate tax allowance scheme-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Okay. An argument has been made that test cases were used in the scope section and they were used in turn by Revenue which historically defined couriers, for example, as a class of self-employed worker. Would Mr. Cody agree or disagree with that? What is his view on it?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I will move on. As I said, the document the Revenue Commissioners gave us is very helpful. I was surprised at the remarkably stable number of companies that use couriers and that it is quite a low number. It is not the only one. It is an example. We can see the consequences for the likes of RTÉ where there was a Revenue settlement and a major investigation is ongoing in the scope...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Is there a growing black economy? Is it quantifiable?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: On the ones where they were employees under the wage subsidy scheme, and then they were not employees-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Is Revenue doing something? What can it do?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: What kind of money is involved?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: Not in a particular company, but in that-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I have just a few questions. We will have a second round, and Deputy Stanley will be back in a few minutes. As regards the local property tax, my big issue is how it is distributed. There was a baseline survey. It has nothing to do with Revenue. Essentially, however, the distribution discriminates against areas that have growing populations and gives an advantage to areas that are...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
Account of the Receipt of the Revenue of the State collected by the Revenue Commissioners 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 20 - Assessment and Collection of Local Property Tax
Chapter 21 - Revenues Tax Debt Warehousing Scheme
Chapter 22 - Corporation Tax Losses
(25 Jan 2024)

Catherine Murphy: I will get it for you.

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