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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (17 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: Has NAMA never raised this?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (17 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: When NAMA sought assurances, they were general assurances, but there was never any mention of Mr. Cushnahan.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (17 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: There is one small point that I think needs to be put on the record. Mr. Neporent stated earlier that the first time NAMA would have approached Cerberus and asked about issues around Brown Rudnick was on 2 April, but would it be right to say the deal where Cerberus was announced as the bidder was concluded on 4 April, two days later?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (17 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: No, I merely wanted to put on the record that there was a discussion between Mr. Neporent's company and NAMA in respect of Cerberus's engagement with Brown Rudnick. Brown Rudnick obviously was a difficulty for it because of its relationship with PIMCO and Mr. Cushnahan. Mr. Neporent stated that it never mentioned Frank Cushnahan to him when he had a conversation with it. My point is that...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: I welcome the deputy First Minister to today's hearing. He will be aware that we have held many hearings and heard from many witnesses, including the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, the NAMA chairman, Mr. Frank Daly, Mr. Brian Rowntree, an external member of the NIAC, and officials from the Department of Finance. We are trying to establish the facts as the people who appear before us...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ..., NIAC, and was a very helpful witness for the committee. He spoke about a University of Ulster study carried out into the assets in the North. It was his view at the time that the entire NAMA strategy for the assets in the North was to work out the assets over time and this University of Ulster report was to help in that regard. Specifically, it was mainly to do with residential...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: Mr. McGuinness understands it. Mr. Rowntree would not have been aware of this when he was here but we now know PIMCO did not make a blind approach to NAMA. It did so on the basis of discussions that took place. It was approached by a Mr. Coulter of Tughans legal firm, Brown Rudnick, and also Mr. Frank Cushnahan, who at the time was a board member of the NIAC. We know that is the case and...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ...as they come in. Mr. McGuinness's opening statement spoke about various combinations of meetings and engagements that took place between the Minister, Deputy Noonan, Northern DUP Ministers, NAMA, Cerberus and PIMCO. We know all sorts of engagements took place and there was one conference call with which Mr. McGuinness was involved with the Minister, Deputy Noonan. My point is there were...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: I wish to ask a question of the deputy First Minister for clarification purposes. When Frank Daly, the chair of NAMA, was before the committee he was questioned a number of times about why NAMA did not move sooner to remove Mr. Cushnahan from his role, he cited political sensitivities. He said:[...] removing Mr. Cushnahan from the committee before his resignation in November 2013 would have...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (16 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ...authorities with an interest in the whole portfolio, it seemed to change the situation. In other words, he said that when PIMCO came on the scene that changed the Executive’s mind about the approach by NAMA? Is that the interpretation of Mr. McGuinness as well?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: That is a good idea. I know we have the NAMA CEO and chairperson coming before us again. However, the response that we have received back from PIMCO contradicts some of what the NAMA board members said when they were here, most specifically, the NAMA legal team and the people who were involved on NAMA's side in those conference calls. There is currently no plan to have them before the...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ...up from a number of organisations, this is most important piece of correspondence we have received. It is illuminating and joins up many dots. It clearly contradicts evidence we were given from NAMA. That is very worrying, as it casts doubt on much of what was said to us in the evidence presented by NAMA in respect of what happened when it was made aware of the success or fixer fees....

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ...Tughans, Mr. Frank Cushnahan and Brown Rudnick - it was not specifically in relation to PIMCO and that there were at least three bidders. That raises questions, because one of the narratives from NAMA was that once PIMCO and Cushnahan were out of the game, or once PIMCO was gone at least, that was the end of the matter. That is not the case. We need to know who these three bidders were....

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: That is the point about NAMA's holding onto the assets. It had an advantage over a potential purchaser who would have had a higher rate of capital.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: We need clarity now on some issues. I will not go over old ground because we want to try to reach some conclusions. When NAMA first attended the committee, it was very strong in its criticism of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the discount rate and his understanding of market values and so on. That softened the last time board members were before the committee, and there...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: It is from 6 November 2013. It was sent from NAMA to the Department of Finance.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: What is interesting about this is that this was in November 2013. It talks about 70% of the North of Ireland's portfolio being completed property and income-producing; that NAMA has approved €140 million in new money advances; a small number of cases had to be enforced in the North; that the agency's enforcement was proportionate to the scale of its exposure in the North and was not...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: NAMA's only reference to a 10% discount rate was in those annual accounts in 2013 and 2014. It was generic.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: ...of Ms Nolan's responses extraordinary. I will refer to the last time she was here and what she said. I am trying to get clarity. There has been a sleight of hand regarding the perception that NAMA was portraying regarding the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and his analysis of the change in sales strategy and the discount rates applied. NAMA misrepresented what the Comptroller...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (Resumed) (10 Nov 2016)

David Cullinane: Exactly. However, we have evidence that NAMA gave us in which it referenced discussions between the Department of Finance and the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding the discount rate. We will go back and correct that with NAMA that it never happened.

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