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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: ...purpose of today's engagement is to meet the Ombudsman, Mr. Peter Tyndall, to discuss his recent report, entitled Opportunity Lost, an investigation by the Ombudsman into the administration of the Magdalen restorative justice scheme. We will then be joined by officials of the Department of Justice and Equality to discuss their response to the report. I welcome Mr. Tyndall and his...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...me is twofold. One of them is that the Residential Institutions Redress Board, RIRB, scheme was not designed to compensate people for forced labour, and that is what we are talking about in the Magdalen laundries. Even if people had access to the scheme, they would not be getting redress in respect of that aspect. The second point I would make is that there are women who did not, in any...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Jack Chambers: In terms of the number of Magdalen survivors and issues with capacity, the Ombudsman mentioned those who have been permanently excluded. Some applicants have obviously passed away due to the administrative reluctance of the Department. It is a shocking development in the context of this redress scheme that they were frustrated by an administrative reluctance to given them redress in the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: ...of something of a footnote. He stated Mr. Justice Quirke had considered and discounted the issue of double recovery. Does he believe it is relevant in this context that those who went through the Magdalen redress scheme have signed waivers in regard to their right of action?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: My final questions relate to correspondence sent to the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and circulated to several Deputies by Justice for Magdalenes, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and several other organisations. Mr. Tyndall's recommendations strongly emphasised the need to write to all women affected to inform them of developments in the case, the report and, in particular, the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: That correspondence quotes the recommendations of Mr. Justice Quirke on pensions, namely, that Magdalen survivors be put in the position that they would have occupied if they had acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the State contributory pension. On that basis, does Mr. Tyndall agree that the pension payments to which such survivors would be entitled should be backdated to retirement...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...report was the first comprehensive and authoritative account of the abuses suffered by children in these institutions. In the same year, the Department was approached by and met two groups, Justice for Magdalenes and Magdalene Survivors Together. Our understanding was that they wanted the State to acknowledge responsibility for abuses in Magdalen institutions, issue an apology and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Jim O'Callaghan: ...Mr. Martin for coming in and for his presentation. A concern that I and other members of this committee have is that, in February 2013, the State made a sincere apology to the women who were in Magdalen laundries, but there is a view in this committee, which I would hold, that the scheme applied and how it has been applied is not really consistent with the sincerity of that apology. I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Jack Chambers: I thank the officials for coming before us. My first question relates to something I asked Mr. Tyndall. There were 19 Magdalen survivors with disabilities who could not be paid compensation. There was an issue of capacity on one of the recommendations and an issue with the assisted decision-making legislation that was enacted. Today, the Department has said there are 17 women in this...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...institutions who worked in the laundry. The existing scheme works on the basis that it does not matter if one worked in the laundry or not; it worked on the basis that one had been admitted to a Magdalen institution and it is assumed one worked. One did not have to have worked in the laundry, it could have been any kind of work. The Ombudsman's clarification suggests that if one went to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Clare Daly: That is not the case. The Ombudsman has presented very strong evidence that the Department of Justice and Equality was well aware of the links between the units attached to the Magdalen laundries and the idea of people working in one of the laundries but being admitted to or resident in an adjacent building. The Ombudsman has presented very clearly how that does not refer to new...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...It was never defined anywhere. I will take the example of An Grianán to illustrate the complications. The Deputy is quite right. When An Grianán was established, it was an integral part of the Magdalen institution. By the time it was finished it was in a separate building, not on site, and there was no connection with the laundry. We could not just say it applies to An...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...institutes redress scheme is not automatically excluded. For example, quite a number of the applicants would have been in an industrial school for a period and would then have moved into a Magdalen institution and would have stayed there until they were 21 years of age. They would get awards under both schemes. There is absolutely no difficulty with that. The awards system under the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...in" that excluded them. The scheme that was approved by the Government at the time specifically excluded industrial schools and other institutions on the same site. It distinguished between Magdalen institutions and other institutions on the same site.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Clare Daly: .... Could Mr. Martin comment on that? He mentioned that 73 people were interviewed and of those 69 got redress. How many of those people got redress for the time that they claimed to be in a Magdalen laundry? Did they all get the full amount of the time they claimed to be in the laundry, or was it reduced in the context of this dispute over time? How many of the people interviewed and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

...what was the average and they had a choice whether to accept that or not, or contest it. I cannot say for every case but where there was no parameter - I believe the average award was for four years in a Magdalen institution - we would have offered four years and it was up to them to accept it or dispute it. I am not aware of any who disputed the period of time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I asked about Ombudsman pension payments. Mr. Justice Quirke said Magdalen laundry survivors should be put in the position they would have occupied had they acquired sufficient stamps to qualify for the contributory State pension. Does Mr. Martin believe it should include a backdating of pension payments to retirement age, rather than simply to the beginning of the administration of the scheme?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: Therefore, there is no acceptance that the State is legally liable for the Magdalenes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Administration of Magdalen Restorative Justice Scheme: Report of Ombudsman (31 Jan 2018)

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: ...the Minister will do the same, with less justification or rationale. Mr. Martin said the Department did not have the discretion or authority to include An Grianán and similar institutions in the Magdalen laundry scheme. He said they found themselves alone in a harsh, physically demanding work environment. Is it not fair to say forced labour was a significant part of the Magdalen...