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Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Shane Cassells: I thank the Cathaoirleach and as rapporteur, it is a great pleasure to welcome all of our guests. As the Cathaoirleach has said, we already have had a number of witnesses before us including councillors from all over the country and public representative association bodies. These have included the Northern Ireland Local Government Association and councillors from Northern Ireland,...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Brendan Howlin: Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach as ligean dom teacht anseo agus labhairt libh faoin ábhar tábhachtach seo ar maidin. It has been quite a few years since I had direct responsibility for local government at Cabinet level. The comment of the rapporteur that we are all very recent does not quite apply in my case. But in truth, local government impacts constantly on the...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Éamon Ó Cuív: ...anseo ón 16 Lúnasa 1989 go dtí Mí na Samhna 1992. Bhain mé an-taitneamh as a bheith sa Seanad ach bhí mé sásta dul go dtí an Dáil freisin. I spent six years on Galway County Council and I was unusual in that I actually got into the Seanad. I failed to get elected in 1985 in the local elections but I got into the Seanad in 1989 and then...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

John Paul Phelan: I will be as brief as I can, but when you listen to your colleagues, you get further ideas as to what you want to discuss. I too was a member of a local authority in Kilkenny for three years before the introduction of the dual-mandate ban and while I share some of the reservations of the previous speaker in respect of the dual-mandate ban, I think it was right to separate local authorities...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Mr. Noel Dempsey: I am very grateful for the opportunity to be here today. Deputy Howlin talked about the length of time since he was a Minister. I am not much longer than that; I was his successor. I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this topic. I have a passion for local government that extends back over 50 years. I always believed that it serves as a cornerstone of...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Mr. Noel Dempsey: I think I supported the thrust of that particular document. Of course one could not admit that it could not be improved on at that time. It was regarded as a major reform document and part of the blueprint for major reform, between the Barrington report, that Government White Paper and the later Local Government Act that we introduced. While Barrington highlighted the...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Mr. Noel Dempsey: The research is entitled, The 21st Century Councillor in Irish Local Government. Despite all the reforms we put in place over those 20 years, the report shows that councillors still feel disempowered, in many cases, and disrespected, power is becoming more and more centralised, central government is taking more and more power to itself directly or through quangos, they...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Victor Boyhan: I thank committee members. I will make clear that while we are using the Chamber for the meeting, this is not a committee of the Seanad but a committee of consultation. I want to be clear on that. There are no "happy day" Senators at all today. Our guests are very welcome. They all bring a breadth of vast experience to the process. There is a recurring theme all the time, which Mr....

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Mark Wall: I welcome Mr. Dempsey, and Deputies Phelan, Ó Cuív and Howlin. Like the Cathaoirleach, I will use the opportunity to pay particular tribute to my colleague, Deputy Howlin, for 40-plus years in both Houses. On behalf of the Labour Party, it will be a very sad day when he no longer represents us as he has done so powerfully for the party and the people of Wexford. I am touched by...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Pat Casey: I thank the Chair and welcome everybody here this morning. It was great to hear from four former Ministers of local government and having served in local government for 12 years, it is probably the most rewarding position in the sense that you are closest to the public and are answering their day-to-day issues. I have seen a lot of changes over that 12 years and since that are not positive...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Shane Cassells: I have a couple of quick questions. As I said at the outset, I knew there would be extremely insightful remarks from all four witnesses and I have a few questions to each of them. One is to Deputy Howlin regarding the statistics he quoted on spending. As I said to Mr. Dempsey before the meeting, Deputy Howlin would often make the point at the PAC that the Comptroller and Auditor General...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Brendan Howlin: It is no wonder that we have not reformed local government because there are so many different views. That is a perennial issue. If I may put it bluntly in this august Chamber, it is more like the discussions on Seanad reform that have been going on for as long as I have been here. Everyone is in favour of it but we cannot get around to agreeing on what reforms should be made. There are a...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Éamon Ó Cuív: ...This idea of doing it voluntarily in a world where people are trying to pay mortgages precludes younger working people from taking up this position. The advice issue is similar. I fully support that. Regarding regional assemblies, they are the hidden body. I do not know much about them and I am a long-time politician. They are selected in a way through the councils. I do not know...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

John Paul Phelan: It might be, and it if is, they will flow the other way. I say that as someone whose local town is New Ross where I do most of my sales. We have to have new sources. Bed nights and sales tax are the obvious ones that could be introduced. I know they have been looked at before and I do not really see why, if we are serious about reforming local government, it should not happen. ...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

John Paul Phelan: It was always so. We always had situations where people who lived on the edge of towns were not included. Sometimes town boundaries were extended to include people, in rural areas in some cases, into town council voting in the last number of town councils that would have been elected. That was not always the case either and it certainly was not uniform. As to regional assemblies, I was...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

John Paul Phelan: They did not. That is right. I said that tongue in cheek. I will be controversial here. I decided I would when I came in. We are having a discussion about how councillors feel they are emasculated, are losing powers and do not have influence. At the same time, we are saying they should become fully paid positions. Is there not a central contradiction in that? They are losing powers...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

John Paul Phelan: It would be ridiculous. There are many areas on the edges of towns where footpaths and street lights are needed. Is it the classic situation that some officious individual in Galway County Council is saying it is the big bad lads of the Custom House who brought this rule in when it is a decision that is being manipulated at local level?

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Mr. Noel Dempsey: Having listened to colleagues' earlier contributions and the previous one, all I can say is that I wish them well in drawing up this report. I am in danger of saying that I agree with everything my colleagues said. Then we would be in real trouble, because they are all saying different things. On paying councillors on a full-time basis, apart from the erosion of their...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Eugene Murphy: ...to the four witnesses. They are experienced and have achieved a lot. Like others, I wish Deputy Howlin the very best for the future. Since I came to the Houses of the Oireachtas in 2016, Deputy Howlin has been nothing but a gentleman. He is conversationist, chatty and helpful all around. I always appreciated that. A lot of the questions have been asked. I start by slightly...

Seanad Public Consultation Committee: The Future of Local Democracy: Discussion (Resumed) (29 Feb 2024)

Gerard Craughwell: Okay, I am trying to. It was written by the authority that we were trying to regulate. It wrote its own legislation. The only Minister who ever liaised with me on legislation for local authority was Deputy Phelan and he was accommodating at the end of the day, albeit with both arms tied behind his back. I am not a party member but the witnesses are. They have been Ministers and are...