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Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Catherine Connolly: I am laughing at the symbolism of the apple and Eve comes to mind but there is not a sign of a woman on the committee. It might be appropriate to tell Apple about what women suffered as a result of the apple symbolism.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Ian Black: The custodian provides the information for us and Apple to allow it to produce its accounts. We produce our accounts based on the same information Apple receives directly from the custodian. In a sense, it is for Apple to deliver. It allows it to monitor the fund and produce whatever financial report it has to provide for the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: On the escrow account, the agent and custodian is the Bank of New York Mellon which is based in London. Some €14.285 billion was put into the fund by Apple Sales International. The Comptroller and Auditor General carried out an audit on behalf of the Minister for Finance and the State. Presumably, Apple Sales International carried out an independent audit of the fund at the end of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The fund of €14 billion was deposited in an escrow account by Apple Sales International to be held for it and the State. The NTMA looks after the fund for the Minister for Finance and the Comptroller and Auditor General audits it to provide reassurance for the Minister and the committee that everything is okay. I presume Apple has done the same. Was there a joint audit? There must...

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Ian Black: No, there is an Ireland-Apple committee with three members for Apple and three members for Ireland that oversees the management of that fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: We do not want to hear in two years' time that Apple is not satisfied with something after the NTMA has said everything was in order. Apple may have a different view, although I presume it takes a view that is identical to that of the NTMA.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

David Cullinane: We received a briefing note from the Department of Finance on the Apple escrow account. The NTMA's presentation was excellent across all of the key areas. The Apple escrow account lost €16 million in value up to December 2018. While it might seem like a small figure in the context of the total sum of €14.269 billion in the fund, how did the loss occur?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Marc MacSharry: I know we agreed with Apple what we were going into, that there would be a three to five-year period and so on, but why would we not invest it where the principle was guaranteed and there was less risk?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Conor O'Kelly: Apple would probably take Ireland as a risk, it is a single A credit, and €14.2 billion would be quite an exposure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Marc MacSharry: Are they paid by the NTMA, Apple or the fund?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: What is the line of communication between Apple Sales International and the NTMA? Is there a line of communication?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Conor O'Kelly: There are three members of the Apple team and three members from the NTMA.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: The amount of money is so large that the Committee of Public Accounts could do with reassurance from the Apple-Ireland committee that it has seen the audit report from both sides. We presume they are identical but we would like to verify that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Conor O'Kelly: Would the Chairman like to see how it is reported in Apple's accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: No, Apple must have done an audit on this escrow account.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Apple has not done an audit.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Seán Fleming: Does Apple plan to do an audit?

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Conor O'Kelly: We can get a note on how Apple is recording the fund for value.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Mr. Seamus McCarthy: I imagine that when Apple is doing its financial statements it may or may not have a reference in them as required for the companies that contribute to the fund. It may be recognised as a contingent asset but presumably the value information would be standard and it would be accepting of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2017 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 21 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2018 (4 Jul 2019)

Marc MacSharry: ...and NTMA pays them a fee. I have a final question. It goes back to Deputy Cullinane's question about the escrow account. What does it mean if we are in negative interest in the context of the Apple money? Is it that we are putting in money and getting no return or losing some of the principle over the period?