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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Charles Flanagan: ...a directive be complied with. I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House campus. I welcome H.E. Ms Dana Erlick, ambassador of Israel, who has recently taken up her position in Dublin. My understanding is that Ambassador Farooqui from the Pakistan Embassy is also in the Public Gallery. I welcome our...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: ...debate on the issue in the Dáil tomorrow, but I also welcome a discussion with the committee in this setting. I know this committee has been deeply involved for many years in the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I want to use this opportunity to discuss with members the principles guiding the Government's response to this crisis. I also want to touch on the longer-term...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: ..., there are a number of areas on which we would like to have a detailed discussion, but it is clear today and this week that the priority for the coming period will be the circumstances in Palestine and Israel. In that vein, will the Tánaiste give us an update on the status of the Defence Forces in Lebanon and Golan Heights? That would be useful for the committee. The...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Joe O'Reilly: I thank the Tánaiste for being here and for his presentation. I welcome the fact, as we all do, that the Tánaiste has condemned Hamas and its actions in Israel. They are unspeakable. That is a starting point about which there can be no ambiguity, and there is no ambiguity, but I welcome the fact that he has said that clearly again. It has to remain part of our narrative on all...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Joe O'Reilly: It occurs to me, moving on, that there is a human dimension to this, that it is very dangerous for the region and that Israel, as Hamas intended, is making its decisions in anger. I think that was the Hamas strategy, and it seems to be working. As was said, international law and international order have to apply in how Israel conducts its business in Gaza. Does the Tánaiste see any...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: Deputy Carthy raised a number of points. In the past we have been very clear in calling out and condemning violations of international law by Israel in respect of the occupied territories. I do not necessarily accept that the narrative in the past has been as he described it. We have been very consistent in saying that UN resolutions should be adhered to in respect of settlements. On my...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: Actually, the Tánaiste has not answered the questions I asked. I do not know why. Maybe he can explain. I asked him to call out and condemn specific breaches of international law by Israel. I do not know why we are afraid to do it. If I had asked the same question about Hamas or Russia, he would have had no hesitation in taking the opportunity. He says there is no equivalence but...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: .... I do not believe in full equivalence on this one, unfortunately. I genuinely have an issue here. In my narrative, what I was saying to the Deputy and articulating was about the concerns of Israel around security relating to Hamas. Does the Deputy think Israel has a right to self-defence against Hamas?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: I want to ask the Deputy: do you believe Israel has a right to-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: Here is the fundamental problem: the words “Israel has the right to defend itself” have been contaminated because they have been associated with the carpet bombing of civilian areas, the forced displacement of 1 million people and the denial to ordinary civilians of water, electricity and food.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: Here is the difficulty: if carpet bombing of civilian areas led to the defeat of Hamas, Hamas would be defeated already because Israel has done it on countless occasions since its blockade began in 2007.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: -----shows that the only way we are going to solve this, and ensure that UN resolutions are upheld, is if there is recognition of the two-state solution. Israel is the party that is preventing the realisation of that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: ...to make the point that we have consistently called this out. We have said that cutting off fuel, water and so on is wrong. I asked Deputy Carthy a straight question about whether he thinks that Israel has a right to go after Hamas, given what has happened to Israel's people. He did not answer. The reason I have difficulty in taking all of what he is saying as being bona fide is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: ...of anything. I have commended the Government’s language in respect of international law, but I have asked the Tánaiste why the Government will not specify the breaches of international law by Israel and condemn it for those.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: I am saying that Israel said that. I am reading out to the Deputy what I said about it. What I said------

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Matt Carthy: -----and when world leaders say that Israel has a right to defend itself, what that has been translated as and what it means in practice for people living in Gaza-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Gerard Craughwell: ...time. This is not some lovely game with a referee in the middle who says "That is not on" or "That is on". This is a brutal war where the terrorists involved are prepared to kill all around them - Israelis, Palestinians or anyone else who gets in their way. They are totally and utterly uncaring with respect to the impact their actions can have on the general stability of the Middle...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Réada Cronin: ...hope that Kim would be found alive. That, unfortunately, was not to be the case. I also warmly welcome the stance that Ireland, through both the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach, has taken with regard to Israel's behaviour. I do not doubt that was a quite difficult stance to take in a highly militarised EU and to speak out strongly about Israel's breaking of international law. The...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Micheál Martin: ...within the Palestinian geographical area. There is Hamas and there are other jihadist organisations. They are raising the spectre. They believe in the same principle - the destruction of Israel. I only say this by way of explanation. I do not approve at all. I have my own views on proportionality and war. If we want to move this onto a political platform, we must seek to understand...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade, and Defence: Foreign Affairs Council and Departmental Matters: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence (17 Oct 2023)

Réada Cronin: ----- about whether Israel has a right to defend itself. Does Palestine have the right to defend itself? Nobody is coming to the aid of the people of Palestine to help them defend themselves from bombs coming from-----

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