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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Members are all very welcome to today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government or the merits of the objectives of...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. McCarthy. Do members wish to comment? When referring to the work programme, I noted that the misclassification of workers, covered by No. 7, which is on the Social Insurance Fund, is one to which the committee will return.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: We will ask the clerk of the committee to send correspondence seeking the outcome of the review. Are there any other items? Could we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements?

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Yes, it will be dealt with further on. Could we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. They will be published as part of our minutes. We will now consider items of correspondence that have been received from Accounting Officers in Government bodies. These items were received between 26 September and 14 October 2025. The committee has agreed to note and...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Yes. While we were in private session, we had a discussion around the work programme. We have agreed, for the slots in the early January, that we will be able to schedule additional meetings. At the next work programme meeting, we can discuss including the NTA.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: The Deputy was at a different committee. She assisted us with the quorum, so we appreciated that. Are there any other items the committee wishes to discuss? No. We will now suspend for five minutes or less to allow the clerk to bring in our witnesses.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: This morning, we will engage with the Health Service Executive to discuss its 2024 financial statements. We are joined by the following representatives from the Health Service Executive: Mr. Bernard Gloster, chief executive officer and Accounting Officer; Ms Sara Long, regional executive officer, Dublin and north east; Mr. Stephen Mulvany, chief financial officer; Mr. Damien McCallion, chief...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I thank Mr. Gloster. Our lead speaker for today is Deputy Albert Dolan.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Twenty-seven billion euro is huge amount of money. It can be difficult for people to contemplate that sort of scale. It is often the examples where controls were missed that point to broader issues. It is the issue of the €15 million spent between 2020 and 2024. In his opening statement, Mr. Gloster was incredibly honest and open about it. I want to flesh it out a little in order...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: There sensors were part of the diagnostic for respiratory-----

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Which would have been important during the Covid period.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Do we know how many devices were drawn down over the periods?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Was a regular or quarterly period agreed?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: What was the agreement for the quarterly period? What was the number of devices that was agreed?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I accept that. The CEO said it.

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: The invoices were being paid. I am struggling with the maths. How many devices were received per quarter?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: Mr. Mulvany can come back with that. A certain number of devices were received per quarter and were drawn down in individual hospitals. They are small devices. Storage was not going to be an issue. Were the people responsible for drawing down those devices aware of the total available quantity? Who had responsibility for drawing down the invoices?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: I am sure it is not unique, for example, for items to be available in a hospital and the front-line people do not think necessarily where they come from. They take whatever equipment, plasters or whatever the different devices are. At that level, there would not be an expectation for them to be aware of it. As you start to come up the line, at some point, somebody must have been managing...

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: This particular one?

Public Accounts Committee: Financial Statements 2024: Health Service Executive (16 Oct 2025)

Paul McAuliffe: That is the point. Mr. Gloster's admission here is that he became aware of the matter because of the perceived grievance of the company that was in liquidation to the effect that the HSE owed it money.

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