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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank our witnesses for coming before us and for all the work they have done in producing this report in a very time-sensitive fashion. I thank them and their colleagues. I would like to return to the three-day wait period as referred to by my colleague previously. Ms O’Shea has agreed that there is no medical reason for it and that there is no legal reason for it. Her belief was...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Exactly, and that was the fear. I know Dr. Conlon has spoken to service users. Can she maybe briefly take me through the decision-making process when a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Before they access any medical advice.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: That is a very important point. A reflection period is not a requirement for any other medical procedure that Dr. Conlon knows of. Ms O’Shea referred to the WHO guidelines and I have them here. They find that waiting periods are unnecessary and should not be included in legislation. If I grasp what Ms O’Shea said in her previous response, her fear and the reason she left it...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Does Ms O’Shea accept that some people have expressed a view that it is actually stigmatising asking people to reflect on a decision that, as Dr. Conlon has already outlined, women have made by the time they come in to a GP?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Do medical professionals not get informed consent anyway?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: It is not put into any other medical procedure but they have to get that informed consent. Can we trust our doctors to get informed consent without it being specified in the legislation?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: So there is no need actually to specifically refer to a reflection period or waiting period within the legislation because informed consent can be obtained.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: As I have very limited time, I want to move on to a few other things. Regarding criminalisation, I welcome the recommendation that doctors would not be prosecuted, but criminalisation still exists. Why did Ms O'Shea leave that in?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: It just felt outside the scope of Ms O'Shea's research. It was not that she is against it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I know that the international trend is towards fully decriminalising.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Therefore, I was wondering why Ms O'Shea did not go that far. It was just that her research did not go beyond it. It is not that she specifically wants to keep that within the legislation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank Ms O'Shea. I want to move on to conscientious objection. Given her research, would Ms O'Shea recommend inserting it into the legislation if she were drafting the legislation now?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Should it be in legislation? The Medical Council Guide to Professional Conduct and Ethics for registered medical practitioners amended the 2019 edition. As section 49 covers conscientious objections, it is already there. Therefore, why have it in the legislation as well?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: That is exactly the point I was trying to get at. By having it in the legislation it goes beyond what the Medical Council ethics guidelines provide for. I was really struck by the evidence in the report that some practitioners actually obstructed people being transferred to other professionals' care. That is horrific and it is not what people voted for.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank Ms O'Shea and Dr. Conlon. I know I am out of time and I hope the Cathaoirleach will let me in for a second round of questioning.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: Members of the committee want to come back in and ask questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: A non-member has been allowed to run way over his schedule.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: I thank the Cathaoirleach. I will refer quickly back to the Irish Family Planning Association, IFPA, research on the three-day wait and the 2.5% of the clients who continued with their pregnancies. Is there any evidence from Ms O’Shea’s own research that the people who continue with their pregnancies change their mind? I am trying to establish whether they had their minds...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Report of the Review of the Operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018: Discussion (31 May 2023)

Lorraine Clifford-Lee: The point I was making is that the person had not necessarily made up their mind and may have then used the three days to make a complete flip-over to some other decision. They may have not made a solid decision when they were going there.

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