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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Reading the notes I have here now and last night, there are 127 entities. We have no definition of what they should be. We have not looked at whether they are fulfilling what we set out for them to fulfil in 2008. We do not know whether they are achieving what we set out for them to achieve. I am very concerned that we would continue going down a certain pathway. That is fairly clear...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Yes, so perhaps a GP might bring us-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Grand. What degree of input can the HSE have into the operation of a PPP site?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Let us say we wanted to put a diagnostics centre on the same site as one of the 14 PPPs. Such centres are fundamental to Sláintecare. Would we be able to do it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: We do not really have control over those sites.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: At the start.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Regarding the PPP sites, the State owns the land and we give the HSE, I think, €50 million upfront in capital costs. This was the position back in the day. The developer built the centre, and now there is this thing called a unitary payment, which is for 25 years, I assume.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: That covers the capital costs of developing the site. We pay the developer to build it. It says that in the notes anyway.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: There are two elements to the unitary payment, yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: To build it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Is that operational cost lights and vacuuming or what is it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: They have a sinking fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: After 25 years, who owns the building?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: There is very little flexibility there, though. One cannot really just rock in with an idea for a diagnostics centre to be plugged into a PPP primary care centre unless there are huge negotiations.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: The difference with this operate and lease model is that a developer builds it and-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: The developer provides the site, which is the difference between this model and the PPP.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: It owns the land and builds the building. Are the staff HSE staff?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: There is the GP and whoever else. What do we pay for?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: Are they more flexible in terms of what we could do?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Kate O'Connell: It is not as easy as just going in and making them do what we want them to do. It is a partnership, really.

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