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Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: This goes to the heart of people's credibility. That is what I am saying. The Minister may say it is not a certainty. I am saying it is a certainty. We will see who is right come September and October.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: That will then be a matter of record in terms of what people said. I wish to move on from that because-----

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: May I come back in on that-----

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I am saying it-----

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: -----but others are saying it to me as well.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I know it is a political decision.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I accept it is a political decision but it goes to the heart of what the core roles are. All I am saying is that many in the media and the health service who are considering this are saying we should always be examining productivity and savings. In fact, in some areas we have come far too late. To his credit, Mr. Bernard Gloster has shone a spotlight on agency expenditure, management...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I agree with some of that. When Paul Reid entered his role and first talked about productivity, one of his first acts was to send out letters to hospital managers on all these things. The Minister might have been a health spokesperson at the time, although I do not believe he was. The letters stated the HSE was to clamp down on bad spending and so on, but it did not happen. Of course, I...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I know the Minister cannot do that but I am referring to considering it.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: With regard to the recruitment embargo, I accept that there has been a very healthy net increase in staff over the past three years. This is a good news story. However, we are moving from a good news story to a different space. This year, there will be a net increase of 2,200 under the national service plan. This may well be higher when the service plan comes out. Who knows? It certainly...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I know it also does not apply to fourth-year nurses. I should have accepted all of this so that we can cut straight to what it does affect.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I want to come back on this point because it is important. The health service is different. We get a large number of staff through international recruitment. There is a world shortage of healthcare staff. When we visited Altnagelvin, people spoke about the NHS coming in to poach a lot of staff who are trained there. We hear the same from training colleges in this State. We are losing...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: It depended on the year and sometimes it was a bit more. Let us say it was an average of 6,000. We will now reach one third of this. If the Minister were to say the ceiling is 6,000 or 7,000 and that we would then put a cap on it, people could somewhat understand it. However, that is not what is happening. It happened at the end of last year but it is not happening now. I am putting it...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I am not saying we will not be hiring staff. I have acknowledged there will be a level of staff employed. It just will not be at the level it was the past three years.

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: A bit like the Supplementary Estimate, we will see at the end of the year who was right when it comes to the pressures this will put on the system. In my view, there is no doubt there will be posts in many of these areas where people will not be able to be replaced. There will be people who will want to come and work in the public system or get additional hours who will not be able to do so...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: Will I tell the Minister the reasons why?

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: It is because people do not understand who exactly is covered. It talks about a family median income. We need to break it down more in terms of the income threshold because that is what people understand. It is far too vague. Even while preparing for this meeting if I am looking for information on what people are entitled to I Google it and the Citizens Information Service comes up...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: I wish to come back in later in a second round on mental health, and on elective centres and hospitals but I also will raise a last point now. In his opening statement the Minister referred to 160 net additional acute inpatient beds. The Minister might recall that we had some discussion on this subject matter as part of a priority question I tabled last week. As I understand it the...

Select Committee on Health: Estimates for Public Services 2024
Vote 38 - Health (Revised)
(31 Jan 2024)

David Cullinane: Okay. I will come back on a second round on other issues. There may have been an expectation built up that now cannot be realised. Going back to what was actually said in this committee from the Department of Health officials when they were pushed on this, if I recall it was the head of capital infrastructure from the Department who talked about some of those beds coming onstream in 2024...

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