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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: If insurance company A is at a meeting in a room with insurance company B would that be considered a cartel?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: If insurance company B then meets in another room with insurance company C is that a cartel?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Most people think a cartel is where all of the insurance companies meet in a room for a discussion but a cartel could be insurance company A meeting insurance company B with a view to reaching agreement on a charge.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: I wanted to clarify for the benefit of the public that a cartel is not ten or 12 companies. It could be just two companies.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: I thank Mr. O'Leary. I would like to return to my questions to Mr. Hassett. There are four legs to this chair: the number of awards being paid out, the legal costs, the fraudulent claims and the profits of insurance companies. Earlier, Mr. Hassett provided us with the following figures for 2014-2017: the Courts Service, €141 million down to €85 million and PIAB €281...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: The figures we were given earlier showed a reduction in the number of claims.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: The figures show that in 2017, €880 million in payouts had not gone through the courts system. Is that a fair comment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: All I am saying is that insurers settle the vast majority of cases rather than contesting them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: It is the soft option. The soft option for insurers is to settle and dump the cost of that on the people paying the premiums.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: We heard from insurance companies previously, in response to questioning from Deputy Pearse Doherty on fraudulent claims, that the number of claims being investigated or passed on to the Garda is insignificant compared with the overall number of payouts insurers are making. The figures the witnesses have cited indicate to me clearly that the soft option, the easy option, for insurers is to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: No-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Mr. Horan is assuming the council will look at the level of awards. The personal injuries guidelines committee will look at the matter and then make a decision, but the assumption that it will drop the level of awards is false. The judges could leave the awards as the status quoor increase them. We must challenge them on that, but Insurance Ireland should not assume they could drop them.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Is the 40% in legal costs on top of the €1.3 billion, the total claims last year?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Yes or no.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Mr. Horan said 40% earlier, though.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: This makes it look even worse for insurers because the €1.3 billion they had in 2017 relates to the cost of claims. The premiums they took in that year amounted to €2.48 billion. Are my figures wrong?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: Where did I get the figure of €2.48 billion from? It was thrown out here. I apologise for that. If the figure was €1.8 billion, that is fair enough. I cannot go down that line. The banks do insurance. I know AIB uses AXA as its product. Are the banks members of Insurance Ireland's organisations?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: The witnesses have no figures to indicate to me the percentage commission they gain.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: The witnesses have no idea of the percentage of the market the banks have. The banks do not have a good record in dealing with customers, as we have seen through increases in mortgage rates and so on.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Dual Pricing for Insurance: Discussion (Resumed) (21 Nov 2019)

Anthony Lawlor: They would be got through the individual companies, the banks. I cannot find out anywhere what company Bank of Ireland uses. AIB clearly uses AXA.

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