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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Business of Joint Committee (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: As we have a quorum, we shall commence in public session. I remind members to please switch off their mobile phones as they interfere with the recording equipment. I thank Senator Mark Daly for his presence and for facilitating the commencement of today's business.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Business of Joint Committee (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Nollaig shona don Seanadóir. Apologies have been received from Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick. We shall now go into private session.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: The purpose of this morning's engagement is to continue the series of hearings on the separate but related issues of access to justice and legal costs. The focus of today’s meeting will be more on the costs aspect. We are joined from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission by Ms. Isolde Goggin, chairperson, and Mr. Fergal O’Leary. From the State Claims Agency, we...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I thank Ms Goggin. I invite Mr. David Mack to make his opening statement on behalf of the State Claims Agency.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I invite Mr. Gerry Hassett of Insurance Ireland to deliver his opening statement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I thank Dr. Doherty. As Dr. Doherty stated, the Legal Services Regulatory Authority has been busy. It is now up to members to pose questions or respond to any of the points made by the four submitting entities. I have indications from Deputies O'Callaghan, Jack Chambers, Pringle and Martin Kenny, and I will start with Deputy O'Callaghan.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I call Deputy Jack Chambers.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: While I do not want in any way to curtail any particular line of questioning, I want to caution that the focus of our engagement is on access to justice and legal costs. It is important that all of our questions and our exploration is in that context, as the Committee on Justice and Equality.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: A small thought of mine is that for those who cannot afford services, no win, no fee might be the only basis on which they can seek justice. There is some need for careful consideration of the point. Dr. Doherty's position has been well articulated. I remind members of the context of our engagement with each of the contributors this morning.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Some colleagues have to leave as there is other work they have to attend to. I want to flag that we have, as a practice, invited all our guests to join us for a photograph at the end. As this group is the last in this particular tranche of hearings and the last of 2019, I would like to invite the witnesses to join us for a photograph at the end. I call Deputy Catherine Connolly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It is access to justice and legal costs. Legal costs seems to be the critical focus this morning but I think it is important to remember the first part of the title - access to justice.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Before Deputy Connolly comes in with her next question, prior to her arrival I cautioned about this matter a couple of times. I fully appreciate the context of the Deputy's line of questioning and its appropriateness, but it is important for the questioner to contextualise it himself or herself and not to rely on my understanding of it. I need the Deputy to reflect that it is in the context...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I thank Deputy Connolly. Our final contributor is Deputy Pearse Doherty. He is very welcome to the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: We do not want to know about individual cases, nor is the question seeking that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Deputy Doherty, I am sorry but it is likely that if that is to be followed up you will have to revert to the other committee business. I wish to emphasise that access to justice and legal costs has to be the determinant in questioning here today.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I must ask Deputy Doherty to bring this particular line of questioning to a close as it is stretching the relevance to the overriding subject. I am not in any way challenging the legitimacy of the Deputy's questions but it is my responsibility to ensure the committee addresses the matter before it. Has the Deputy concluded his questions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: Access to Justice and Legal Costs: Discussion (Resumed) (18 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I will be referencing that in a moment. Deputy Doherty's final engagement aside, it is fair to say that there has been a certain dominance of attention to Insurance Ireland. The Central Bank report is most likely the reason for it. As I have emphasised repeatedly, the committee's business is the address of access to justice and legal costs. It is important to point out the that views of...

Section 39 Organisations: Motion [Private Members] (17 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It is far from usual.

Section 39 Organisations: Motion [Private Members] (17 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I wish to address a few words to the representatives of the Disability Action Coalition, the member organisations of the Oireachtas disability group and others who are present in the Visitors Gallery. I apologise that debate on the motion began far in advance of the time set by the Business Committee, with the result that many of them missed some of the earlier contributions. I extend a...

Section 39 Organisations: Motion [Private Members] (17 Dec 2019)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I move: “That Dáil Éireann: acknowledges that: — the independent not-for-profit Section 39 sector provides vital services for many thousands of people with disabilities across Ireland; — the Section 39 sector also provide healthcare, elderly, youth, substance abuse, suicide prevention, social inclusion, education, community development and many other...

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