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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Okay. I just wanted to be sure about that particular aspect. To go back to the risk register, I take that Margaret Nugent's point was actually noted on the risk register in the last quarter of 2016. How was that referenced?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Thank you. Mr. Ó Cualáin said that it did not work very well but that new systems have been put in place since earlier this year. Has he identified why it did not work and why this would not have made its way, given the significant risk that it posed to the reputation of the college and given that the college is supposed to be the centre of excellence for training guards?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: To go back again on another general aspect, many courses are run in Templemore. They are mainly around the criminal code. One area in which people probably feel there is a real risk to the public is that of white-collar crime. I have to say that the way this has been handled in Templemore is not an exemplar from that point of view. We were told that people did not have the skill sets,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I want to return to the point on the money that went into the restaurant account. What was voted money? I want to be clear on that. The money was voted and went to the college for the purpose of maintaining the recruits. The restaurant was one part of that. There would have been some income in the restaurant over and above that, I imagine quite a small amount. My reading of the report...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It was not used for the purpose for which it was provided then. It went to the sports field account and other things are paid out of that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: But that was not what is was voted for. It was very specifically voted for meals. Is that not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It was a per head payment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I would like to ask Mr. McGee about his report in which he looked at the restaurant account and identified some of these issues. Is that how he understands what the money was provided for? Was it used in the way that it was intended to be used? Was it intended as a mechanism for funding sports fields?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Mr. McGee made many references to that sports field company in terms of compliance with a whole range of things.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I suspect that when it comes to priorities, the Garda fleet and the cars with 300,000 km on them might be a bigger priority than money going to facilities in the college.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Can I just close off the point I was making?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The very fact it has changed means that it was seen as problematic. The witnesses replies to my questions seem to suggest that they agree with what Deputy Commissioner Rice said in respect of the money being for the use of the college. Some people are saying that is not their understanding or that they do not agree with it, but that is certainly my understanding of what the witnesses are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Does Ms McMahon agree with Deputy Commissioner Rice on that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: We know that the restaurant account is one particular aspect of this, but are there others, for example, the garage.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I want to go back again to the internal audit report and the progress report on the financial procedures in the Garda College, which comes out of this. We know Mr. Dunne has not read it, but has everybody else read this? I take it everybody accepts the findings. We had the head of internal audit in here with us two weeks ago and he surprised us with his opening statement's strength and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I have very limited time here. Expanding on it will not change that significantly. Assistant Commissioner McMahon stated that nobody personally gained.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: If I go down to the post office tomorrow morning because my neighbour has problems paying his mortgage and I rob the post office to pay my next-door neighbour's mortgage, I will not personally gain from that, but it does not mean it is right, does it? Would Ms McMahon accept that there was funding provided by vote of the Dáil to the Garda College for a particular purpose and it was not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: A point Mr. Barrett made in his report to which Deputy Cullinane also drew attention is that, "As a consequence, accounts signed by the Commissioner since 2005 [we have got to remember that the Commissioner is the Accounting Officer] are apparently compromised as the practice of retaining funds originating from the vote in private accounts has prevailed." We know that there have been some...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(14 Jun 2017)

Catherine Murphy: We were told earlier that the accounts cannot be amended, that the accounts are the accounts. If those accounts are found not to have been correct, then they are compromised. In the report he co-authored, Mr. McGee referred to the Garda Sportsfield account. Mr. Culhane came before the committee last week and it relates to this. I accept the point Mr. McGee makes that he picked it up at a...

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