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Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: First, the scheme has not been abolished. The scheme is still in existence and, while it is more limited, it does offer the examination. People always had to pay towards their fillings and extractions. It was only a grant that was paid. The only treatment they got free was the examination and two scales and two polishes per annum. If people wanted an extraction or filling, they always...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: The idea behind the reclaiming of PRSI contributions for four years is to bring it in line with the tax system. Senator Norris asked if it applied elsewhere; it applies in the tax system. It does not cut both ways.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: This is the same as in the tax system. If one owes money to Revenue, it can take it from one no matter how long one owes it. However, if it owes one money, one only has four years within which to get it back. It will be the same with PRSI and it brings it into line with the tax system. As regards how much money is involved, in 2008, refunds were paid to 14,500 people costing €21.3...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: Since 1994 people have been able to get refunds without any time limit, so it is not as if people have not had an opportunity to do so up to now. It is now appropriate to bring the process in line with the tax system for the reasons I have outlined. It does not affect some of the people Senators were talking about, such as people who underpaid or were trying to build up their entitlements....

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: The amnesty has been there since 1994.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill 2009: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: People could have claimed money back in that time. The reality is people do not know they have overpaid unless an accountant examines the matter or a claim has been made for a new scheme etc. I do not know if there are other examples in the financial sector but even if there were, it would not affect what the State is doing. We can only work from a departmental perspective. Awareness and...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: I am taken aback that for once Senators are showing a complete lack of perspective. The arguments made today would be valid if we had abolished child benefit, but we are talking about a cut of €4 a week. There are people for whom that cut might be significant, but the recommendation in the McCarthy report was that we cut it by €30 per week for the first child and €67 per week for...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: The recommendation of the Commission on Taxation was that it should it be taxed which Senators have recommended today. If we were to do this, a middle income earner would see an effective reduction in child benefit of €66. If two people are earning, they are paying tax at 41%; therefore, child benefit would be taxed at that rate, meaning it would be reduced to €100. That would be far...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: People on low incomes need child benefit to support their children; that is why we have protected them. In an effort to avoid creating a poverty trap, we ensured an increase was also given to people in receipt of family income supplement, protecting those on low incomes who are working. The cut was kept to a minimum. Parents of any nine year old to an 18 or 22 year old, depending on their...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: We were not born Ministers; we were born real people with real families.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: We have real siblings, parents and children. We have been elected to Dáil Éireann by our constituents who hold us accountable.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: We meet them every day; therefore, we know their needs and demands. We are accountable to them. It was disingenuous, therefore, of Senator Doherty to question our bona fides in the work we do. As Ministers, we are very well paid. Senators and Deputies are also very well paid. That is why, as Ministers, we took a formal, legal and permanent cut of 15%. We are still well paid - I am not...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: It recommended cuts to the lone parent payment, the farm assist scheme, for the unemployed, the young and widows.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: Let us be genuine about the arguments we are making. Senator Buttimer accepted this when he quoted some elements of the Fine Gael policy We would all prefer to be in a position where we could do what the Government has done successively in recent years, to increase child benefit by 300%. We should keep the matter in perspective; we still support families and parents. I am sorry we have to...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: Will I speak to the amendment first or to the section as well?

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: Senator Norris is correct in what he is proposing but having said that, I will wait to deal with it in the social welfare Bill which is due to be passed in March or April.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: The legislation provides that a person can be refused a payment if he or she turns down an offer of employment. Therefore, a person's application can be reviewed to ascertain if he or she is genuinely seeking work. There is no provision in any legislation to allow for the payment to be reduced. Therefore, we need to bring forward an amendment in the next legislation which will allow for...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: The community welfare officers will be guided by the existing legislation which provides that one can investigate the person concerned to ascertain if he or she is genuinely seeking work. If the person is not, he or she can be cut off benefit for a period of up to nine weeks. That in itself can be quite stringent. A social welfare officer can do that and the person concerned can then go to...

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: I have evidence from employers of people who have turned down offers of jobs and said they would be better off on the dole.

Seanad: Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Bill: Committee Stage (Resumed) (16 Dec 2009)

Mary Hanafin: That is a legitimate reason for taking somebody off benefit. Unfortunately, I have heard, as I did from Senator colleagues this morning, that employers in the construction industry are not able to get people to take up jobs. The same applies to shopkeepers. People have told them they would be better off on the dole. The employers will not give the names of those individuals nor will they...

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