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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Forget about Revenue for a minute. I am talking about EUROSTAT. Clearly, EUROSTAT is taking gross profit and the actual amount of tax paid as a proportion of gross profit and working out the effective rate, what it calls the implicit rate, from that. Is that not what it is doing?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Is it not more to do with the amount that is written off taxable profit in the form of what are called trade charges? Just €14 billion of the €73 billion pre-tax profits are royalty payments paid by a multinational to the exact same multinational. That multinational decides how much it will charge itself for the right to use patents and intellectual property rights because...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I put it to-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I hope I get the time back.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I want to drill down into that but in the short time available we will not have enough time to do that in the detail in which it should be done. When a multinational is selling stuff to itself, is it not the case that it can charge what it likes in reality? It is very convenient if it charges a very high price for that because it writes down the amount of profits that are then liable for tax.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Does Mr. O'Brien think morality and fairness should come into tax policy and corporate tax policy?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Does he think it is moral or fair that the cleaning lady who cleans the floors and toilets in a multinational company pays twice or possibly three times the proportion of her income in tax than the shareholder who buys shares in a multinational and does nothing?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I asked Mr. Coffey, who is our economic expert and rapporteur, for the effective tax rate for the average worker in this country. Most cleaning ladies would probably earn less than the average. Let us take the average worker who pays 25% of his or her income in tax as against the effective tax rate for the corporations for whom the cleaning lady works. I would argue that the corporations...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Will Mr. O'Brien repeat that?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: (Resumed) KPMG and Unite (28 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Losses that have-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Can I just stop Mr. Keegan there because time will run out?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I have seen figures - I do not have them in front of me - which show that, for example, the productivity of workers in Irish multinationals and the profits generated per worker are off the Richter scale compared to other countries.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I have great time for Irish workers and I have no doubt how educated and capable they are, but there is such a spectacular gap between the profits being generated per worker in Irish multinationals and those in other countries, that two and two would strongly seem to suggest four. I am suggesting there is something going on. Would Mr. Keegan agree with that?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: That is the question.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: I have two other quick questions and the answers will have to be brief because I do not have much time. I am back-tracking a little bit. Tax deferral, as opposed to tax evasion, might be legal but Mr. Keegan made a good point which is worth underlining. Perhaps he can confirm this point. If one can defer tax there is a huge amount at stake, is there not? To take the comparison with an...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: One can do it for five years.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: If one is on a low income, one can do it.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: With interest.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Joint Sub-Committee on Global Corporate Taxation: Ireland's Corporate Tax System: Discussion (27 May 2014)

Richard Boyd Barrett: Yes, but one pays interest on it. As regards share values, however, because they do not have to pay tax on it the value of their shares can appreciate - sometimes enormously - and they can then sell those shares and make vast fortunes. Generally speaking, it is not a mechanism that is available to ordinary citizens but by doing this, shareholders in those companies can become very rich. Is...

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