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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is exactly the figure I calculated. How can there be €110 million in that account?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witness is telling me at this point in time, and we will have Caranua in separately, that Caranua is working on a fund of €110 million. That is accepted. He is now saying that they have not even gotten the €110 million yet.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: No, I am talking about money received. We know about the commitments. Caranua has not actually received €110 million.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witness did not highlight that in his opening statement. He gave us figures, figures, figures. I have been adding and subtracting to try to work out percentages. The witness now says that I am right.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Fine, but this is the parent body. We will come to Caranua. From the Department's point of view, Caranua is the organisation handling the €110 million. The onus was on the witness to get the €110 million for it. It has not got that yet.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: So the full €110 million in cash has not yet been received by Caranua?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: I just want to put that on the record. The speakers have indicated in the following sequence-----

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: I know. I thank the Deputy. However, with all of the controversy, Caranua has not even gotten what it was supposed to get at this point. The speakers are as follows: Deputy Connolly, 20 minutes; Deputy Cullinane, 15 minutes; and Deputies Catherine Murphy and Josepha Madigan have also indicated in that sequence. I call Deputy Connolly.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes, but-----

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Not until afterwards.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Deputy has an extra minute remaining. She is on her last minute.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Following directly on from that I want to clarify something before I call Deputy Cullinane. After the Ryan report there were formal meetings with the congregations led by the Taoiseach-----

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----with the Minister and senior officials with the congregations. Mr. Ó Foghlú has the dates of those meetings.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Are the minutes of those meetings to hand?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am asking if there are minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is exactly the point I am coming to. We have the Taoiseach, the Minister and officials. Arising from all of that, and we know the scale of the money, the C&AG did a special report, which we are now discussing. As part of that report last year he would have to-ed and fro-ed to Mr. Ó Foghlú with his recommendations and Mr. Ó Foghlú's responses to those...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: So now Mr. Ó Foghlú is saying he has seen a summary of meetings and memoranda but three or four times today he has told us he has not seen the minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have to be straight.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will be saying to all Accounting Officers that we should not have to drag information from them. We expect people to come in here and co-operate fully. I am amazed and I find it extraordinary that Mr. O Foghlú did not take it upon himself to see the minutes of the meetings at which several hundred million was being discussed between Mr. Ó Foghlú's Department and the...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 96 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Child Abuse Inquiry and Redress (13 Apr 2017)

Seán Fleming: Can I know definitely if minutes were taken?

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