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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: We are talking about three cases and a total of €1,279,290. In the case of the individual in receipt of a payment to which the person was not entitled, I would have thought the amount involved was probably in the order of €100,000 or more.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: It is about €100,000, I reckon.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: We are talking about €1.2 million involving two individuals. That is a staggering figure. It is taxpayers' money. It is shocking that this is €600,000 on average for the two individuals.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Can I take it from what the Secretary General says that we are talking about 60-40, 70-30?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What link is there between the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners, through computer systems and so forth?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What was the value of fraud detected in 2012 and 2013?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Am I correct in saying that in 2012 total overpayments amounted to €97 million; that the figure for client error was €36 million; fraud, €41 million; estate cases, €13 million; and departmental error, €7 million? The figure for client error was 37%; fraud, 42%; estate cases, 14%; and departmental error, 7%. In total, the figure for fraud amounted to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: A figure of 0.5% appears very low. What resources has the Department put into special investigation in this area?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is there an assistant secretary in charge of dealing with fraud?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What staffing structure is in place?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is this a new structure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What does Ms O’Donoghue mean by “enhanced”? Are there extra staff?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Has that happened?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: In total, there is an assistant secretary, 50 staff-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: That gives a figure of approximately 143 and another 20-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: How does Ms O’Donoghue think the fraud proceeded? People are entitled to have legitimate claims processed as fast as possible, but the general public and those in receipt of legitimate payments are entitled to know that the system operates with integrity. What has the Department done with its new anti-fraud strategy that is new and creates a system that will stand up to scrutiny and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: I know all that. What practical additional resources has the Department put into this area? Apart from giving me the policy statement, will Ms O’Donoghue tell me about the practical additional resources the Department has put into this area?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: That is very general information. I want specific numbers.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: That is general. Twenty extra gardaí will come in. What extra staff has the Department put into this area? It is welcome that there is an assistant secretary in charge of the area, but what specific, targeted resources has the Department put into it? How many extra staff are there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is the Department ahead or behind profile on JA and JB?

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