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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: How will the board of directors for the hospital group in question be appointed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: How was it appointed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Are they HSE employees?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Is Dr. Ambrose McLoughlin satisfied that public pay, procurement and promotion policies are being followed there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: We know that. We have seen what people think of Mr. O’Brien’s letters. Many of them have not responded to them. Is that hospital group compliant with all HSE circulars?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: That is not the question. For years, non-compliance in the section 38 agencies was not brought to Mr. O’Brien’s attention. Is Mr. O’Brien happy with the governance in this hospital group? Are procurement policies for IT and so forth followed to the letter?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: At the last meeting, I asked about the use of hotels by the hospital group but no one knew about it. Are hotels used to accommodate staff or one member of staff of the group? Will Mr. O’Brien check that for me as well?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: The reason I raised this is because, unfortunately, Mr. O’Brien used the phrase a nod and a wink regarding section 38 agencies. There is still a lot of nodding and winking going on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: This poor governance went on right across different Departments and agencies. People want that culture to be changed. I am not referring to individuals but that the culture needs to be changed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Will Ms Frances Spillane give a copy of it to the committee?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Has St. Vincent’s come back on its compliance issues yet?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I am waiting for the response and I would like to see it today. The committee will be here again tomorrow to consider this response. I thank the witnesses for attending the committee. I appreciate it has been a long day but they have been very helpful. I hope we will not see Mr. Barry O’Brien again before Christmas.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I wish the delegations a Happy Christmas and thank them for their co-operation. I also thank the press and the members.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I would point to the letter of 2009, which I raised again last week. Mr. Des Peelo of the Central Remedial Clinic wrote to Ms McGuinness at the HSE in 2009.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: He set out his understanding of the meeting that was held, and the CRC apparently worked on that understanding thereafter. The next letter from the HSE to the CRC was in 2012, so the HSE was absolutely aware of what was going on in the CRC in 2009. It was aware of what was going on back to 1996 and the parliamentary question. While we are dealing here with the CRC, St. Vincent's and the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: If it was going on in the CRC, it was going on elsewhere. The question I had last week for Mr. Brazel was that all of this was known in the Department of Health. It was known; let us call a spade a spade. It was absolutely clear, so let us stop dancing around it. The Department of Health and the HSE knew about it, so did the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, previously the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I am sorry but I have to interrupt Ms Buckley. I am not directing this question to her or to Mr. Brazel. I am asking about the Department. The Comptroller and Auditor General audits the HSE generally and did so before concerning other health organisations. What is his opinion of this? We spoke earlier about other auditors writing their notes on different audit reports. Did Mr. McCarthy...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I have to interrupt Dr. McLoughlin. There are 44 agencies, eight of which are compliant. Twelve are non-compliant and 22 say that in their view they are compliant, but Dr. McLoughlin questioned that. There are two others somewhere in the mix, to make up the sum total, but whether they are compliant I do not know. That is a significant number of non-compliant organisations. I understand...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: We will forward a transcript of proceedings to the group in the interests of ensuring that the information the Deputy is seeking will be provided.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Yes.

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