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Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. O'Brien described nursing home provision as a free market environment. Will he elaborate on what he meant by that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Is it fair to say the less public provision there is the greater the need for the private sector to step in?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Is it fair to say the less public provision there is the greater the need for the private sector to step in?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. O'Brien has also said there was a decline in the number of public beds available.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Will he give us the figures? When did the decline start and what was the number of available beds then compared to now?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Were beds lost before that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Did the Prospectus report not project nursing home need in the public sector over a long time period?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: The report recommended an increase, but there was actually a decrease.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Is that a long way of answering my question? The report looked at the level of need in the public system and called for greater bed capacity. Mr. Healy is telling me that, in the period since the report was issued, there has actually been a decrease in the number of beds available. We all know that there was a crash. I just want to make sure I am being factually correct.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Earlier, Mr. O'Brien said that when comparing public service provision with the private sector in terms of nursing home settings and infrastructure, the quality of the buildings was not as good in the public sector.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I will come to that. That is my point. What we had over a sustained period was, possibly, a lack of investment to build new buildings or improve the existing ones to make them fit for purpose. HIQA then comes onto the scene. Examples were given where HIQA, doing its job to which no one can object, recommended closing a number of nursing units and wards within certain care facilities. On...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: It may well have been. To give an example, I refer to St. Brigid's ward in St. Patrick's Hospital in Waterford. That was closed at the behest of HIQA, was it not?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Who made the recommendation?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. Healy saying that HIQA had no role in that? My understanding is that HIQA made the recommendation.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Look at what I am asking. HIQA made a recommendation that the unit be closed.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I understand that but my point is that the body with responsibility for examining whether or not units are fit for purpose is HIQA. It must go in, examine and do all its work and then make a proposal. Notwithstanding what any other agency does, HIQA makes a proposal. My point is that because of the poor quality of stock and buildings, HIQA has recommended, and it has been a consequence of...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: They have been closed with a resultant lack of capacity. Notwithstanding its size, Waterford has one hospital, St. Patrick's, trying to cover an entire city. Deputy Connolly stated earlier that people have no choice when they are told where to go and Mr. Marron came back, correctly, and said they did. In reality, they do not have a choice. I put that to him. It is a bit disingenuous to...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Before he comes in, I note that the private providers are at pains to point out to the committee that they provide a better quality and cheaper service. The committee received an invitation to visit a private facility also. I am not saying that is correct. I am asking about the difference between the service provided by a public nursing home as opposed to a private one in terms of quality...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: There is a higher level of care.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not a like-for-like comparison.

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