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Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Deputy Deasy asked Mr. O'Brien a question. I will quote from the transcript of the Committee of Public Accounts. I do not know if the secretariat can get it up on the screen; I signalled earlier that I would raise this. The first question he asked is "Who made the decision to leave Grace in the foster home?" It is a very clear, explicit question. Page 88 of the Devine report talks about...

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Deputy Deasy put a very straightforward, explicit question to Mr. O'Brien. He asked who made the decision to leave Grace in the foster home and if those individuals were still working in the public system. When one looks at the Devine report on page 88, it references three individuals, H7, H6 and H4 having made the decision. Does Mr. O'Brien accept that when the Devine report referenced...

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Does it reference H3 or H12?

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Does it mention anywhere else that they were involved in the actual decision? When Deputy Deasy asked Mr. O'Brien who made the decision to leave Grace in the foster home, it was very clear exactly to whom he was referring. Mr. O'Brien said he had read the report. If he had, he would have known that the only reference to, in particular, the actual decision in October was H7, H6 and H4.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: As such, it is reasonable for us in asking Mr. O'Brien to correct the record to have answered today the question asked then. Mr. O'Brien was asked earlier whether H7, H6 and H4 were still in the public service, specifically H6, and he said he was not minded to answer. He then said he would be guided by the Chair. I ask the Chair to ask Mr. O'Brien to answer the question because it is...

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking that Mr. O'Brien does that. I am asking if the Chair will allow him to do that.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I am not asking for a rank or name. We are simply asking if the person is working for an agency of the State and, if so, which one.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: This is H6. Is it also correct that H6 made an added intervention in 2001 in respect of Grace being in a foster home?

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I am asking if Mr. O'Brien is aware.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Yes and I am asking if Mr. O'Brien is aware that in 2001, H6 made an added intervention on Grace's presence in the foster home.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I do not know whether it is in the Devine report.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: That is not the question I asked. I asked if Mr. O'Brien was aware. I asked him the question and he asked me to further clarify it. I am asking if it is the case that this individual, H6, made an added intervention in 2001.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Which is?

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Please, yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: I am glad Mr. O'Brien clarified that. He has at least clarified the original question he was asked by Deputy Deasy, notwithstanding Mr. O'Brien's contention that he had a view that the Deputy was talking about other people or at least that Mr. O'Brien had different people in his mind, which is hard to understand. Anyway, we have dealt with that now. I have two simple, direct questions for...

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Can I make one point? I want to give Mr. O'Brien leave to answer the question. With all due respect, Mr. O'Brien offers up as an excuse as to why the HSE did not contact An Garda Síochána prior to March 2015 the excuse that if the HSE had asked, An Garda Síochána would have said "no". The HSE did not ask and that is the point.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: Mr. O'Brien said in his opening statement-----

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: That is Mr. O'Brien's opinion.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: It is not wrong. With respect, Mr. O'Brien is not offering facts.

Public Accounts Committee: Correction of Record of Meeting of 2 February 2016 (23 Mar 2017)

David Cullinane: No, he is not. With respect, what the witness is doing is offering his view as to why he did not contact An Garda Síochána. He said that one of the reasons was that if he had asked - he then cites references to a third party - it would have said "no". What I am saying is that this is an excuse because he did not ask. If he had asked, he might have got a different outcome. We...

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