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Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: She would not have had a responsibility at that point.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: On page 2 of his opening statement, Mr. O'Brien states that Deloitte exchanged draft documents with both parties. He then goes on to say that this is the norm and that it is reasonable to expect that both parties under review would have the opportunity to comment and to offer feedback for consideration. That happened with the HSE and with the service provider. The service provider was very...

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I ask that we make that request and that we tie it down to this particular net point. I have a further question. I noted the HSE's comment and I read the language carefully, which states:The [Public Accounts Committee] has not asked Deloitte for access to the draft report. If such a request came, we would consider the request, but it is not normal to provide access to anything other than...

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Finally, where would Deloitte have got the material for the table?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The table that was omitted from the final report.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Did Deloitte construct the table from that exercise?

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It would be quite useful to get that information. If we cannot have the table then please supply us with the input and we can assemble it ourselves.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Deloitte Report on Cost of Care in Grace Case (26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: For the avoidance of any doubt, could we make sure the correspondence I asked about, which Mr. O'Brien has agreed to provide, on the engagement between the HSE and Deloitte includes email correspondence?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The last time the HSE was before the committee, it confirmed funding had been allocated for the provision of financial management systems which had been largely absent. I raised the issue of how difficult it was to get information on the organisations in question compared to other organisations. Is that system up and running? Has it been designed? At what stage is it?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Looking at information on section 38 and 39 agencies from parliamentary questions I have raised and from the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, Enable Ireland, for example, showed a variety of different spends in various areas. Is there a postcode lottery with service provision? For example, in the case of Enable Ireland services, it depends if one has an organisation in one's area....

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: The funding gives us a historical insight into quite a dysfunctional pattern of service provision. According to paragraph No. 19.28 on page 267 of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, €1.79 billion was provided for voluntary and community agencies, excluding hospitals. Paragraph 19.29 reads: "The HSE stated that it is establishing a strategic community costing programme...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: It seems that governance and administration costs are built into funding for section 38 and 39 organisations and that there is also a cost within the HSE as regards oversight of those organisations. We have heard about whether the sample was targeted and a known problem was picked out. There is oversight yet again by an external body, such as Deloitte in this case, and is likely to be an...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Essentially. It difficult to have a rights-based approach if one does not have control of the organisation or if there is such a variety of organisations that the application and standards in areas differ.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I have asked questions on home help hours, personal care hours and so on. To be honest, provision of these services does not correlate to population densities. It seems to need a major rationalisation. Regarding Benefacts, do section 38 bodies have to publish their audits? Do they provide them to anyone?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Where is the oversight if they are not published?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Is that a gap in oversight?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: Are those that are not publicly available from large organisations?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: I am looking for where there might be gaps and where we might not be seeing things that we should be scrutinising.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of Comptroller and Auditor General 2016
Chapter 19 - Management and Oversight of Grants to Health Agencies
(26 Oct 2017)

Catherine Murphy: May we have a list of those that are not required to publish?

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